Why does this pagan (Porphyry) sound exactly like Christians justifying icons? What is the meaningful difference between pagan idol worship and Christian icons?
>those who make a suitable object of reverence for the gods, do not think that the god is in the wood or stone or bronze from which the image is manufactured
>For the images of living creatures and the temples were set up by the ancients for the sake of remembrance, in order that those who approach thither might come to the knowledge of the god when they go; or, that, as they observe a special time and purify themselves generally, they may make use of prayers and supplications, asking from them the things of which each has need
>For if a man makes an image of a friend, of course he does not think that the friend is in it... but honour is shown towards the friend by means of the image
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There is no similarity, Christians put up images and icons of the saints for the same reason people put up photographs and mementos of their friends and familyin their house, they're important people to us and we want to keep them in our hearts and minds.
Why was it bad when the pagans did it?
Because those images served them to worship the false gods that they believed in, thus they needed to be done away with, if an object leads you to idolatry, then it is to be removed. Nobody is worshipping their friends and family.
So icons are ok if they worship a rabbi hobo, but evil if they worship white people?
>muh white race
What's wrong with the white race?
What's wrong with nonwhites?
They're not my kin, so I don't want to worship foreing gods anymore than you'd want to worship vishnu.
>They're not my kin,
They're your brothers and sisters in humanity.
>so I don't want to worship foreing gods anymore than you'd want to worship vishnu.
We don't worship Vishnu because he is a false god, not because he is a "foreign" god, your reasons are not the same as ours.
>They're your brothers and sisters in humanity.
So?
So they are indeed part of your kin.
Porphyry was being a liar, ancient pagans did use images to worship their false gods.
No they aren't. Kin has a specific definition. By your logic cows and chickens are also "part of my kin" because they're animals.
Race is not real anon, get over it.
You are wrong and the fact that your false religion produces misery for everyone involved in it is a demonstration of that.
>They're your brothers and sisters in humanity
Indeed, the british should sell their sisters off to the pakis in exchange for a conversion. It's what richard lionheart tried to do with saladin's brother lol.
Now how do you know your god is the real one and not tengri?
>I don't want to worship foreing gods anymore
I'm curious, which pantheon do you worship, anon?
Ironically Vishnu is IE, being a composite of rig Vedic Varuna-Mitra and rig Vedic Vishnu combined with Aryan ancestral hero worship cults and various beast warrior cults.
Vishnu is, bizarrely, more white that Jehovah and Yeshua
>Nobody is worshipping their friends and family.
Actually outside of Abrahamism belief in an afterlife and ancestors that continue to intercede in the world is the norm. So, yes, they do actually worship their family and close friends.
Yes, ancestor worship will be done away with, God willing. We will make sure to erase it, alongside any and all other forms of idolatry.
Yeah, I'm sure the Watchtower Society will get it right THIS time lmfao.
I'm not a Jehova's Witness.
>Now how do you know your god is the real one and not tengri?
Considering how history turned out, Tengri either is not real, or he didn't care that his worshippers were wiped out, or could not do anything about it. Either way, false god.
Considering how history turned out, Yahweh either is not real, or he didn't care that his worshippers were wiped out, or could not do anything about it. Either way, false god.
YHWH is worshipped by half of the world.
Then why do you say that Muslims worship a "moon god", that Catholics worship the devil, and that non-JW Protestants worship satan? By your own admission there's only 8.5 million Christians.
I've already told you that I'm not a JW.
>One thread on an anonymous imageboard is clear proof that YHWH is not worshipped by half the world.
m8.....
That's pretty clearly not the case given that this thread is just turning into Cath vs Prot shitflinging.
I mean, jesus let the tengri worshipping monglos rape a lot of christians amd muslims, he also let the pagan vikings redraw the british map, and he let the moors take spain, and he let the turks take 1/5th of christian europe.
Frick he has a terrible record.
>I mean, jesus let the tengri worshipping monglos rape a lot of christians amd muslims,
And they were destroyed.
>he also let the pagan vikings redraw the british map
And they were converted.
>and he let the moors take spain,
And they were beaten back.
>and he let the turks take 1/5th of christian europe.
And they were defeated.
Not even with multiple enemies coming to Europe on all directions could the forces of evil destroy the Christian faith.
Jesus has an excellent record.
>And they were destroyed.
Mongolia still around, anon, as is Central Asia as a whole.
>And they were converted.
Scandinavia still exists and Asatru is a religion that is still practiced.
>And they were beaten back.
You don't believe that the people who did this are Christian so I don't see what Jesus has to do with this.
>And they were defeated.
Again, you believe that the people who did this worship satan.
>Not even with multiple enemies coming to Europe on all directions could the forces of evil destroy the Christian faith.
You're constantly whining about how you JWs are the most oppressed race.
>Jesus has an excellent record.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Watch_Tower_Society_predictions
>Mongolia still around, anon,
And there are Catholics there, look it up.
>Scandinavia still exists and Asatru is a religion that is still practiced.
Asatru is a made up religion with no connection to ancient Norse paganism, it's quite literally no better than Wicca
>You don't believe that the people who did this are Christian
.........of course I do?
>Again, you believe that the people who did this worship satan.
No? Are you the anon who keeps thinking that I'm a JW? I already told you that I'm not.
>You're constantly whining about how you JWs are the most oppressed race.
I'm. Not. A. JW.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_Watch_Tower_Society_predictions
Well good thing that I don't belong to that fraud organization.
>And there are Catholics there, look it up.
So? You said that they were destroyed.
>Asatru is a made up religion with no connection to ancient Norse paganism
It's the same religion, anon.
>.........of course I do?
No you don't lmfao. You believe that they're satanists.
>I'm. Not. A. JW.
You're doing a poor job of that.
>Well good thing that I don't belong to that fraud organization.
Then which one are you a member of?
>So? You said that they were destroyed.
Yes, the Mongol empire was destroyed, the Mongols notoriously never made any effort in exporting their culture, they didn't spread their religion, they never exported their language, they never tied more lands' political order to their native Mongolia, they came and went, and the world moved on.
>It's the same religion, anon.
Is that all their sources are Christian writings?
>You're doing a poor job of that.
I don't worship Jehova, there. Could I be any more clear?
>Then which one are you a member of?
The Roman Catholic Apostolic Church.
>they came and went, and the world moved on.
So like Christianity.
>Is that all their sources are Christian writings?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If you're getting angry you should probably get off the internet for a bit. No, our understanding of Asatru is not dependent upon Christians. Not that it really matters because even if that were the case you'd have to argue that Christians are liars and cannot be trusted.
>I don't worship Jehova
But you do, you worship the god of the israelites, just like they do.
>The Roman Catholic Apostolic Church.
lmfao you should have just stuck with being a JW holy shit
>So like Christianity.
Nope, Christianity is still going strong 2000 years on, yeah it may be down on its luck these days, but it is by no means out of the fight, if it were you wouldn't see secularists losing their minds about "Christian nationalism", we are working tirelessly to bring down the secular rule and bring sanity back to the West.
>No, our understanding of Asatru is not dependent upon Christians.
Who wrote the Eddas?
>Not that it really matters because even if that were the case you'd have to argue that Christians are liars and cannot be trusted.
Isn't that what you believe? Thus it would make anything written by Christians "impure" in your eyes.
>But you do, you worship the god of the israelites
Yes, but His name is not Jehovah.
>just like they do.
They worship their own made up god, which they call Jehova, just like Mohammedans with their Allah.
>lmfao you should have just stuck with being a JW holy shit
I have never been a JW.
>Christianity is still going strong 2000 years on
You can't say this and believe that Christianity ended in 1962 with Vatican II, anon.
I obviously don't believe that Christianity ended with Vatican II. Vatican II has been horrendously misunderstood, yes there are very valid criticism of pope Francis, such as the fact that he get's obsessed with environmentalism or that he goes on and on about unity in the Church but his attempts and reconciliation have backfired spetacularly (look up what's happening in Germany) and that he refuses to listen to his hardest critics, the one who we should suspect he'd want to build bridges with the most.
I'm just going to ignore your gay e-cath LARP stuff and actually talk about Paganism because it's more interesting and that's what this thread is about.
>Who wrote the Eddas?
The Poetic Edda was composed by numerous Asatru poets (some of whom we actually know by name, but most are anonymous). We don't know who physically wrote the texts down, but the Catholic Church (that you pretend to be an adherent of) posits that these individuals were Pagans. Given that we have independent attestation of a number of these poems we can confirm that they are accurate to the oral tradition (Which by its very nature would never produce the same text identically every time anyways).
"The Sagas", which is basically all of Medieval Scandinavian literature outside of the Poetic and Prose Eddas, are sourced from similar sources to the Poetic Edda.
The Prose Edda was written by Snorri Sturrlson who while a self professed Christian is not actually a Christian according to the doctrinal changes in the Catholic Church (which you pretend to be an adherent of) but also on account of his Icelandic Nationalism (tl;dr Snorri didn't want Iceland to be a province of Norway, the Vatican backed the Norwegian crown and declared it Paganism to disagree). Most of what he says is also found elsewhere so we can confirm that he was accurate to the oral tradition (Which, again, would be multiplicitious and shifting but consistent in aggregate).
>Isn't that what you believe?
No, I don't, and I'm not sure why you'd think that. Some individual Christians are absolutely liars, but I wouldn't say that everyone who calls themselves "a Christian" is inherently lying 100% of the time or something.
>Thus it would make anything written by Christians "impure" in your eyes.
False religions have no spiritual power or validity.
>The Prose Edda was written by Snorri Sturrlson who while a self professed Christian is not actually a Christian
Kek.
>False religions have no spiritual power or validity.
Hey just like modern neo-paganism.
JWs also call themselves Christians, what's your point?
You're saying that the Prose Eddas were written by JWs?
>the ESL thought that this would be a clever own
lmfao
Were the writters of the Eddas Christian Catholics, yes or no?
>Poetic Edda
No, they were not, by the Catholic Church's definitions.
>Prose Edda
No, Snorri was not, by the Catholic Church's definitions.
You could have gotten this from my first post, IDK why you needed to drag this out.
why not just shut the frick up and let the pagan tell you how things work you dweeby larper? if you dont even if if the books were written by JWs or not you are in no place to have an opinion.
Well, most neopagans aren't protroony marriage, and Catholics by definition are, so...
>Well, most neopagans aren't protroony marriage
They completely absolutely are, they are at the very front of the pro LGBT movement.
Peak cope.
>They worship their own made up god, which they call Jehova, just like Mohammedans with their Allah.
So then you original claim in
is wrong, by your own admission. What
said was right, and you were either lying in
or have since changed your mind.
Mohammedans worship the Father, but they don't acknowledge the Holy Trinity, which is their problem, as the CCC teaches.
>Mohammedans worship the Father, but they don't acknowledge the Holy Trinity, which is their problem, as the CCC teaches.
Could you actually look this stuff up before just spewing your opinions on the internet? This isn't what the Catholic Church teaches at all.
>The Roman Catholic Apostolic Church.
>arguments found: 0
That has already been debunked several times.
We're not having a debate, there are no arguments here, we're just making fun of you and your false troony LARP religion.
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2023-12/fiducia-supplicans-doctrine-faith-blessing-irregular-couples.html
>Although the couple is blessed but not the union, the Declaration notes that what is blessed is the legitimate relationship between the two people: in “a brief prayer preceding this spontaneous blessing, the ordained minister could ask that the individuals have peace, health, a spirit of patience, dialogue, and mutual assistance—but also God’s light and strength to be able to fulfill his will completely” (par. 38)
Can Christians bless sinners, inspite of the fact they they're indeed sinners? Yes or No?
No no you don't get to worm your way out of this. You asserted the Catholic Church does not bless same sex couples. I have provided proof from the Vatican that it is permissible.
>a brief prayer preceding this spontaneous blessing, the ordained minister could ask that the individuals have peace, health, a spirit of patience, dialogue, and mutual assistance—but also God’s light and strength to be able to fulfill his will completely” (par. 38)
And this is perfectly in line with Christian teachings, we are commanded to love our enemies, bless them and pray for them, to not repay their hatred with more hatred but with love. We are called to love our neighbour as we love ourselves, so if I wish peace, health, patience for myself, I must also want the same for others.
Which is entirely unsurprising that the Catholic Church is the only Church which has this opinion. The Catholic Church has long been a haven for homosexuals.
>Which is entirely unsurprising that the Catholic Church is the only Church which has this opinion.
It's the only Church that exists.
>The Catholic Church has long been a haven for homosexuals.
I'm pretty sure Protestants are the haven.
>we are commanded to love our enemies, bless them and pray for them
From the Gospel
>3 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A43-48&version=NIV
Interesting. I don't see the word "bless" in the teaching of Jesus
>Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:14-21
Context please. Considering this is the words of Paul you can be assured he is speaking of the Roman State, not homosexual couples.
Also the Gospels supersede anything Paul wrote.
>Considering this is the words of Paul you can be assured he is speaking of the Roman State, not homosexual couples.
Our enemies are anyone who is not Christian.
>Also the Gospels supersede anything Paul wrote.
The Gospels and the Epistles are not in conflict with one another. You are a divider.
Keep moving those goalposts, but Paul also condemns homosexuality in his Epistles.
Of course he does, homosexuality is a sin.
So do you bless a homosexual couple?
The same way you would bless anyone else.
Good. At least you admit you bless sin. Recognizing your shortcoming is the first step to repentance
>Good. At least you admit you bless sin.
No, we bless the person, not the sin. If we could not bless sinful people, nobody could be blessed.
>The Roman Catholic Apostolic Church
The one that blesses same sex couples?
>Asatru is a made up religion with no connection to ancient Norse paganism, it's quite literally no better than Wicca
are you one of those gays who e-converted to "eastern orthodoxy" for that gay mexican twitter guy?
>I'm. Not. A. JW.
You might as well be given that you're defending them.
Where itt did I defend them?
>get raped by vandals, visigoths, franks, lombards, norse, slavs
>they convert
>they keep the lands they took from you
>you win
Lmao this is cuckery to a whole new level
And the turks still hold formerly chrstian anatolia, soooo when does jesus give that back? Or do we have to do some very unchristian things for it?
>>get raped by vandals, visigoths, franks, lombards, norse, slavs
>>they convert
>>they keep the lands they took from you
What to you mean too from "me", I never owned any Roman land.
>>you win
I'mean, yeah, if your enemy submits to you and adopts your doctrine, and live by your rules, you win.
Did the celts of brittania win after the anglos converted? From what I remember the anglos killed/raped most of them, enslaved the cymra (welsh), and did some very silly things to the irish
>Did the celts of brittania win after the anglos converted?
Who cares about this nation winning over that nation? The only thing that matters is that they all worship the one true God.
Nope. And how would that changed the fact that Asatru is a modern made up artificial religion anyways?
>Who cares about this nation winning over that nation?
What nation are you from anon?
he is lmfao!
>>"If I kill you, you are wrong"
funny how christians are THE biggest proponents of "might is right"
>>>"If I kill you, you are wrong"
Isn't this the exact same argument that is thrown against Christianity whenever it is said that it "lost" somehow?
No?
>Kek, God didn't "protect you" in *insert historical event*, that means your religion is wrong!
why don't you pay attention to the thread you are in
But why dont they obey God when he says to not do that? Do they only worship God with their lips but arent willing to give up anything he is against? Are they not willing to make even the smallest of sacrifices to please the God they claim to worship? Wont even rest on sabbath or give up pork. Wont give up idols, wont obey him in any way that they do not feel like. They truly believe they know more than God. The God they serve is a version of God they made up in their own heads that always agrees with them and forgives them for everything they do always no questions asked.
They claim to be spiritual children of Abraham by faith, a man who sacrificed everything for God, left his home, his parents to go to an unknown place, waited until he was 100 years to receive the child God promised him, and then was willing to give him back to God despite loving him more than anything in the world. Yet christians wont even sacrifice eating bacon for God. Sacrificing a statue is just too much to ask from the Holy One. God just doenst know what he's talking about, im sure he wont mind me feeding energy to the demons with this idol.
Why did God order the Israelites to make images of gold cherubim, heavenly beings no less, to decorate the Ark of the Covenant? Was God commanding idolatry? Was He a hypocrite? Of course not, this event shows us that the "no graven images" rule is not as undending and absolute as some legalists would want us believe, it shows us that these images can be used so long as they direct worship towards God and no one else, which is what saints and angels do, they point us towards God and to worship only God.
>Was God commanding idolatry?
No, because Yahweh was inside the Ark, duh. He dwelt in the Ark until they let him out and he physically, bodily, dwelt with the israelites before leaving.
Because God ordered it. Did God order you to build a statue to the queen of heaven? The ark of the covenant was a communication device, it was not an idol. God appeared in hologram form, his voice was heard from the ark. It was not a dead piece of wood.
pic related, those "saints", "virgin"s and "angels" are not who you think they are. There's a reason God commands you to stay away form them, so much that he order the Israelites to destroy these idols ON SIGHT, burn them down, tear down their altars and kill all who worship them.
When God commands the next purge of idolaters you will be on the hitlist for your disobedience and stubbornness.
>Because God ordered it.
Ok, so that clearly shows us that there are instances in which images of heavenly beings are permissible.
>Did God order you to build a statue to the queen of heaven?
God indeed ordered us to honor and respect His mother.
>The ark of the covenant was a communication device, it was not an idol.
Same with the saints and icons. They're not idols.
>pic related, those "saints", "virgin"s and "angels" are not who you think they are. There's a reason God commands you to stay away form them, so much that he order the Israelites to destroy these idols ON SIGHT, burn them down, tear down their altars and kill all who worship them.
They're images of the best of Christianity, they are real people who walked the earth, not false gods that never existed.
>When God commands the next purge of idolaters you will be on the hitlist for your disobedience and stubbornness.
God bless you anon. I hope you find peace.
God is to be feared trembling and respected. Even the mighty ones in heaven tremble at his presence. I hope you realize it before it is too late. Your idolatry is feeding the demons who are plaguing this world with wickedness.
You are worshipping the 7 main demons of the pantheon and their father.
A system as old as paganism, to prevent being burned at the stake they hid their demons idols behind saints and virgins.
Egyptian pantheon, African pantheon, Greek pantheon, Norse Pantheon, Hindu Pantheon, Catholic Pantheon are the same group of pagan demons spirits from the times of Noah behind different names.
Different cultures gave them different names and different appearance after the languages were confounded at Babel. They appear to each nation in their similitude but they are the same group of demons. The children of Satan.
Did you read the quotations?
>for the sake of remembrance
>but honour is shown towards the friend by means of the image
That would be fine. The problem is when you get to Orthodox levels and start bowing before them and kissing them.
>sound exactly like Christians justifying icons?
because they had to deal with the same shamanistic weirdos from West Asia, probably
Animists were less moronic and didn't just have a single temple with a single figurine as a god living like Al Bundy in his crib. Semites were full on psychotic and hence all the bs about idolatry - they were terrified of muh ebil rival gods/demons occupying cult items
>What is the meaningful difference between pagan idol worship and Christian icons?
In this instance, Who, through the icon, is being shown the reverence. For Pagans, who follow this interpretation, nothing is wrong with their use of imagery in itself, for they recognise that it is nothing but wood. However, they give worship to demons or non-existent beings. That is idolatry, for only the One God is worthy of that worship, since there is no God but God
>there is no God but God
Nah, monotheism is bullshit
Christians will push back of course but their veneration of Icons and specifically the veneration of the Cross is functionally no different from the idolatry they decry from other faiths. The same arguments they will use are the same arguments that pagans will use. This is because Christianity is a syncretic religion between Roman paganism and Judaic Monotheism.
Hindus will make the same arguments defending their idol worship as well
Not idolatry
Idolatry.
It's a matter of perspective and stubbornness, nothing more
There's no difference. The biblical critique of idolatry ("it's just a statue lmao") is simply a strawman argument. It's hilarious that Christians eventually started using that same faulty argument against each other.
The Abrahamic view of "idolatry" has always been contradictory and more propaganda than based on anything real. How idols work mainly depends on what culture and time period you're looking at. In the Bronze Age it's likely that many cultures literally believed that the statue or idol was the God or Goddess itself. But by the Iron Age religion has evolved to see idols as icons or potential avatars for the Gods and Goddesses to temporarily inhabit. You can see this in Rome with how idols were mass produced so every family could have one at their hearth. If Roman pagans truly believed in the Old Testament definition of idolatry then the idea of mass producing idols for the masses would have been blasphemous.
>muh demons
Have the Christians ITT calling pagan gods demons ever read the Old Testament? Yahweh act more like a stereotypical demon than most Greek or Norse Gods. I think calling Yahweh the Demiurge is even going too far, he's clearly a trickster entity like Loki.