There could still be small, less noticeable miracles. There aren't any big ones because then everyone would become 100% convinced of God's existence and we'd be completely obedient to him, but that defeats the purpose of this world being a test. If you don't commit crimes in front of the police officer that doesn't mean you're a good person. The question is, will you be good when the policeman isn't around.
Isn't it such an odd coincidence the divine Creator of the entire universe and all its physical laws has so many reasons for making it look like He does not exist?
Not a mere coincidence. God conceals Himself so we would have to search for him. I already explained why. A test of virtue only works if you feel comfortable enough doing wrong.
How is a test of virtue improved by removing evidence that the virtues God wants you to following are valid in the first place
5 months ago
Anonymous
We have enough good reason to believe in a God, but we are left with some doubts. God doesn't perform obvious miracles because that would cause us to have zero doubts, and that would be a problem to free will.
5 months ago
Anonymous
That makes no sense. People who express complete confidence in God's existence are many in number and still have as much free will as anyone else and use it to sin plenty
5 months ago
Anonymous
No one has that kind of complete confidence. Also, when a person commits sin, in that moment they do not really believe in God. If someone truly believed they wouldn't act that way. You wouldn't do something extremely embarrassing in front of another person, but you would do it alone when no one's around, even though it's still an embarrassing thing to do.
>God doesn't perform obvious miracles because that would cause us to have zero doubts, and that would be a problem to free will
Why does it not violate free will for me to know anything else? Knowing that jumping from the roof would likely kill or permanently injure me prevents me from making that choice, apparently restricting my free will.
I don't really understand your argument. God's not testing you on whether you'll jump from a building or not.
5 months ago
Anonymous
You could say that no one has justified confidence in God's existence but that does not prevent unjustified confidence which does exist
5 months ago
Anonymous
If a person has absolute certainty in God then he's a schizo and will not be rewarded for his foolishness. Any thinking person has doubts, but if he lives virtuously despite his doubts, that makes him worthy of reward.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>I don't really understand your argument. God's not testing you on whether you'll jump from a building or not.
God is not testing me on anything in Christianity as it is an unconditional yes-no switch between whether I accept Jesus or not. No other property of my character is relevant.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Well then Christianity is obviously wrong because the Bible (Old Testament) says we are judged by whether we keep God's commandments are not. This applies equally to israelites and Gentiles, although they have some different commandments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahidism
5 months ago
Anonymous
I can respect that response more than the usual Christian copeologies I usually encounter. For the meat of the matter though, I'm not under the impression Judaism has the same inane mental gymnastics about "free will". You would be wise not to.
5 months ago
Anonymous
So does Satan not really believe God exists or what?
5 months ago
Anonymous
>God doesn't perform obvious miracles because that would cause us to have zero doubts, and that would be a problem to free will
Why does it not violate free will for me to know anything else? Knowing that jumping from the roof would likely kill or permanently injure me prevents me from making that choice, apparently restricting my free will.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>that would be a problem to free will
a problem so big even gawd cannot fix it?
also, will people have free will in heaven? or will they harbor doubts there as well?
how about the obvious miracles found in the bible and later hagiographic fanfiction?
5 months ago
Anonymous
>a problem so big even gawd cannot fix it
This is God fixing it. >will people have free will in heaven
No. At that point their mission is complete. >how about the obvious miracles found in the bible
Those were to make a point for them and for future generations.
>God uses Satan to test us
why would an omniscient deity need to test for anything? he knows the quality he would supposedly test us for.
We have free will and so whether we merit reward or punishment is entirely up to us. God knows what we will choose in the end, but He doesn't cause us to be that way.
why did he create miracles during the biblical age then?
To reveal Himself to humanity so the religion could get started.
So does Satan not really believe God exists or what?
Satan knows that God exists and he is a servant of God. He does the dirty work.
>There aren't any big ones because then everyone would become 100% convinced of God's existence and we'd be completely obedient to him
This is clearly contradicted by the Israelites' behavior in Exodus. They saw huge miracles and might've been convinced of Yahweh's existence but they weren't obedient.
For the most part they were obedient. There wasn't widespread immorality among them like today, but only two issues:
1. Making the golden calf (according to israeli tradition they were worshipping God in the form of a calf, not the calf itself, which is still a problem but more a sign of ignorance than immorality).
2. Some of them rebelled against Moses the fallible human being.
There is no comparison between the iniquity of that generation and the current one. Also, because those people had seen great miracles they were judged by a harsher standard. Those who rebelled against Moses were swallowed by the earth, and the rest of them would never enter the land of Israel. Today we are not judged so harshly by God because we have not seen such miracles.
>heh, dumb Reddit atheist, the reason why everyone betrayed God constantly back in the past despite so much obvious evidence and miracles is because humans are wicked >but uh, any serious miracle today would literally convince everyone, ok?!?!? >in this house, we believe THEOLOGY IS REAL, chud
See above.
5 months ago
Anonymous
why did he create miracles during the biblical age then?
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Sir you are under arrest >Why, what'd i do? >I can't tell you that would interfere with your free will. >Well how did you know I did it? >Because I've been watching your every move and action silently and have been judging you for a final punishment that can never be revoked or fulfilled. You will live in a torture box for eternity now. You will have nothing to do be scream and cry.
5 months ago
Anonymous
What exactly is your issue here? Is it the length of the punishment? Is it not knowing? I'm sure people who commit terrible crimes know what they're doing is wrong, even if there's no one there to seem them do it.
>then everyone would become 100% convinced of God's existence and we'd be completely obedient to him
Oh no?
>that defeats the purpose of this world being a test
The bible says that the spirit comes into you, you aren't saving yourself, the holy spirit drives you towards salvation
>If you don't commit crimes in front of the police officer that doesn't mean you're a good person
In your case you commit crimes but you get off the hook by sucking the judge's wiener.
>The question is, will you be good when the policeman isn't around.
Will you? You choose to ignore the laws you dislike and then believe that all that matters is telling daddy Jesus that your weally sowwy
>the holy spirit drives you towards salvation
Myth invented by the New Testament. >In your case you commit crimes but you get off the hook by sucking the judge's wiener
No argument? >You choose to ignore the laws you dislike and then believe that all that matters is telling daddy Jesus that your weally sowwy
I'm a Noahide, not a Christian. I keep the commandments that are relevant to me.
No we wouldn't. Satan and the fallen angels were disobedient while they knew God existed.
Satan and the angels do not rebel against God. That is a myth invented by the Catholic Church, and it's a real mystery why some Protestants believe it. Satan is a tool used by God to test us.
>Satan and the angels do not rebel against God. That is a myth invented by the Catholic Church, and it's a real mystery why some Protestants believe it. Satan is a tool used by God to test us.
God uses Satan to test us and Satan is acting in rebellion at the same time. It's 4D chess.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>God uses Satan to test us
why would an omniscient deity need to test for anything? he knows the quality he would supposedly test us for.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>God doesn't need to test us >God tests us
There's no contradiction here. He didn't "need" to make the world either.
5 months ago
Anonymous
I'm content to have the theist paint himself into the corner of a capricious and random god who has no particular reason for what he does, but that's not the christian god.
The problem with this argument is the "non resistant non belief" phenomenon. People who sincerely look at the evidence and come to the honest conclusion that they don't believe in the Christian God. If God is all loving, this should not exist. Why would God not reveal himself to those who sincerely search for him? Unless you are a Calvinist than maybe you could just say that those people were predestined for damnation anyways.
If a person genuinely searches for God and does not find Him, God will have mercy on him. But I think this scenario is quite rare. Even if you've never heard of the Bible, at the very least everyone can rationally determine that there may be a God and that he probably wants you to live a moral life and therefore that is what you should do.
>There aren't any big ones because then everyone would become 100% convinced of God's existence and we'd be completely obedient to him
This is clearly contradicted by the Israelites' behavior in Exodus. They saw huge miracles and might've been convinced of Yahweh's existence but they weren't obedient.
>heh, dumb Reddit atheist, the reason why everyone betrayed God constantly back in the past despite so much obvious evidence and miracles is because humans are wicked >but uh, any serious miracle today would literally convince everyone, ok?!?!? >in this house, we believe THEOLOGY IS REAL, chud
God uses miracles to confirm His word. After the death of the last apostle He was no longer sending new revelation so there was no reason for miracles (every sunrise is a miracle)
Catholics and Orthodogs are somewhat respectable for believing miracles are still a part of common life and happening all the time, even though they are cucked compared to their history too. Marian apparitions, eucharistic miracles and saint shenanigans are fake but the narrative is what counts and they have the most compelling real life fantasy LARP for it, hence the attraction.
such as
and why are they only limited to minor healings and visions when he performed feats in the bible such as parting a sea and turning people to salt
The entire orthodox faith is based around an army of saints that performed miraculous deeds well into the modern era and who are venerated with their own holidays and traditions. >when he performed feats in the bible such as parting a sea and turning people to salt
if you believed in these things I suppose you would argue that those 'biblical' events occured during a turning point in history, i.e. end of the world tier cataclysmic shitshow where god had to literally kill everyone or save them from themselves.
The only way to know is to wait till some nuclear showdown happens.
If God cares so much about free will to the point that he allows famine, genocide, eternal damnation, and basically everything bad that has ever happened to make it more freer why didn't He mention that in the Bible
>T. Saints
Anon they haven't taught about the miracles of the Saints.
Lastly, our generation of ww2 and onward have had miracles through the blessed and saints intersections
howrver we are currently living through a chastisement or rather the prelude to the chastisement. Rather of God for our iniquities and if we don't look inward to ourselves for said punishment, we'll, we don't have to look far to see how bad things are.
God, I am sorry for my sins.
Have mercy on me.
Have mercy on us O'Lord.
>the bible is historically accurate
It isnt and hasnt been. Read the bible in terms of connotation, not in terms of denotation. Noah did not die at the age of 609 or whatever the frick it was, neither did his sons. No flood happened where this boat was needed orwhatever.
If you want to read connotation, maybe try John first in the 2nd testament. Id say its the most beautiful mystical teaching that gets you right started with the experience of miracles today.
Protip: are you the bulb that carries the light, or are you the light of which the bulb is but a vehicle?
There could still be small, less noticeable miracles. There aren't any big ones because then everyone would become 100% convinced of God's existence and we'd be completely obedient to him, but that defeats the purpose of this world being a test. If you don't commit crimes in front of the police officer that doesn't mean you're a good person. The question is, will you be good when the policeman isn't around.
Isn't it such an odd coincidence the divine Creator of the entire universe and all its physical laws has so many reasons for making it look like He does not exist?
Not a mere coincidence. God conceals Himself so we would have to search for him. I already explained why. A test of virtue only works if you feel comfortable enough doing wrong.
How is a test of virtue improved by removing evidence that the virtues God wants you to following are valid in the first place
We have enough good reason to believe in a God, but we are left with some doubts. God doesn't perform obvious miracles because that would cause us to have zero doubts, and that would be a problem to free will.
That makes no sense. People who express complete confidence in God's existence are many in number and still have as much free will as anyone else and use it to sin plenty
No one has that kind of complete confidence. Also, when a person commits sin, in that moment they do not really believe in God. If someone truly believed they wouldn't act that way. You wouldn't do something extremely embarrassing in front of another person, but you would do it alone when no one's around, even though it's still an embarrassing thing to do.
I don't really understand your argument. God's not testing you on whether you'll jump from a building or not.
You could say that no one has justified confidence in God's existence but that does not prevent unjustified confidence which does exist
If a person has absolute certainty in God then he's a schizo and will not be rewarded for his foolishness. Any thinking person has doubts, but if he lives virtuously despite his doubts, that makes him worthy of reward.
>I don't really understand your argument. God's not testing you on whether you'll jump from a building or not.
God is not testing me on anything in Christianity as it is an unconditional yes-no switch between whether I accept Jesus or not. No other property of my character is relevant.
Well then Christianity is obviously wrong because the Bible (Old Testament) says we are judged by whether we keep God's commandments are not. This applies equally to israelites and Gentiles, although they have some different commandments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahidism
I can respect that response more than the usual Christian copeologies I usually encounter. For the meat of the matter though, I'm not under the impression Judaism has the same inane mental gymnastics about "free will". You would be wise not to.
So does Satan not really believe God exists or what?
>God doesn't perform obvious miracles because that would cause us to have zero doubts, and that would be a problem to free will
Why does it not violate free will for me to know anything else? Knowing that jumping from the roof would likely kill or permanently injure me prevents me from making that choice, apparently restricting my free will.
>that would be a problem to free will
a problem so big even gawd cannot fix it?
also, will people have free will in heaven? or will they harbor doubts there as well?
how about the obvious miracles found in the bible and later hagiographic fanfiction?
>a problem so big even gawd cannot fix it
This is God fixing it.
>will people have free will in heaven
No. At that point their mission is complete.
>how about the obvious miracles found in the bible
Those were to make a point for them and for future generations.
We have free will and so whether we merit reward or punishment is entirely up to us. God knows what we will choose in the end, but He doesn't cause us to be that way.
To reveal Himself to humanity so the religion could get started.
Satan knows that God exists and he is a servant of God. He does the dirty work.
For the most part they were obedient. There wasn't widespread immorality among them like today, but only two issues:
1. Making the golden calf (according to israeli tradition they were worshipping God in the form of a calf, not the calf itself, which is still a problem but more a sign of ignorance than immorality).
2. Some of them rebelled against Moses the fallible human being.
There is no comparison between the iniquity of that generation and the current one. Also, because those people had seen great miracles they were judged by a harsher standard. Those who rebelled against Moses were swallowed by the earth, and the rest of them would never enter the land of Israel. Today we are not judged so harshly by God because we have not seen such miracles.
See above.
why did he create miracles during the biblical age then?
>Sir you are under arrest
>Why, what'd i do?
>I can't tell you that would interfere with your free will.
>Well how did you know I did it?
>Because I've been watching your every move and action silently and have been judging you for a final punishment that can never be revoked or fulfilled. You will live in a torture box for eternity now. You will have nothing to do be scream and cry.
What exactly is your issue here? Is it the length of the punishment? Is it not knowing? I'm sure people who commit terrible crimes know what they're doing is wrong, even if there's no one there to seem them do it.
>then everyone would become 100% convinced of God's existence and we'd be completely obedient to him
Oh no?
>that defeats the purpose of this world being a test
The bible says that the spirit comes into you, you aren't saving yourself, the holy spirit drives you towards salvation
>If you don't commit crimes in front of the police officer that doesn't mean you're a good person
In your case you commit crimes but you get off the hook by sucking the judge's wiener.
>The question is, will you be good when the policeman isn't around.
Will you? You choose to ignore the laws you dislike and then believe that all that matters is telling daddy Jesus that your weally sowwy
>the holy spirit drives you towards salvation
Myth invented by the New Testament.
>In your case you commit crimes but you get off the hook by sucking the judge's wiener
No argument?
>You choose to ignore the laws you dislike and then believe that all that matters is telling daddy Jesus that your weally sowwy
I'm a Noahide, not a Christian. I keep the commandments that are relevant to me.
Satan and the angels do not rebel against God. That is a myth invented by the Catholic Church, and it's a real mystery why some Protestants believe it. Satan is a tool used by God to test us.
>Satan and the angels do not rebel against God. That is a myth invented by the Catholic Church, and it's a real mystery why some Protestants believe it. Satan is a tool used by God to test us.
God uses Satan to test us and Satan is acting in rebellion at the same time. It's 4D chess.
>God uses Satan to test us
why would an omniscient deity need to test for anything? he knows the quality he would supposedly test us for.
>God doesn't need to test us
>God tests us
There's no contradiction here. He didn't "need" to make the world either.
I'm content to have the theist paint himself into the corner of a capricious and random god who has no particular reason for what he does, but that's not the christian god.
No we wouldn't. Satan and the fallen angels were disobedient while they knew God existed.
The problem with this argument is the "non resistant non belief" phenomenon. People who sincerely look at the evidence and come to the honest conclusion that they don't believe in the Christian God. If God is all loving, this should not exist. Why would God not reveal himself to those who sincerely search for him? Unless you are a Calvinist than maybe you could just say that those people were predestined for damnation anyways.
If a person genuinely searches for God and does not find Him, God will have mercy on him. But I think this scenario is quite rare. Even if you've never heard of the Bible, at the very least everyone can rationally determine that there may be a God and that he probably wants you to live a moral life and therefore that is what you should do.
>If a person genuinely searches for God and does not find Him
This does not happen (Acts 17:26-31, Romans 1:18-22).
God CAN if God decides but in any case God will have to infuse supernatural faith and repentance or else they go to hell.
Amen. All too often we forget unbelief is a spiritual issue, not an intellectual one.
>If God is all loving, this should not exist
This does not exist. These people are seeking an excuse.
>There aren't any big ones because then everyone would become 100% convinced of God's existence and we'd be completely obedient to him
This is clearly contradicted by the Israelites' behavior in Exodus. They saw huge miracles and might've been convinced of Yahweh's existence but they weren't obedient.
>heh, dumb Reddit atheist, the reason why everyone betrayed God constantly back in the past despite so much obvious evidence and miracles is because humans are wicked
>but uh, any serious miracle today would literally convince everyone, ok?!?!?
>in this house, we believe THEOLOGY IS REAL, chud
God uses miracles to confirm His word. After the death of the last apostle He was no longer sending new revelation so there was no reason for miracles (every sunrise is a miracle)
Catholics and Orthodogs are somewhat respectable for believing miracles are still a part of common life and happening all the time, even though they are cucked compared to their history too. Marian apparitions, eucharistic miracles and saint shenanigans are fake but the narrative is what counts and they have the most compelling real life fantasy LARP for it, hence the attraction.
There are many miracles of God that happened in recent history.
such as
and why are they only limited to minor healings and visions when he performed feats in the bible such as parting a sea and turning people to salt
The entire orthodox faith is based around an army of saints that performed miraculous deeds well into the modern era and who are venerated with their own holidays and traditions.
>when he performed feats in the bible such as parting a sea and turning people to salt
if you believed in these things I suppose you would argue that those 'biblical' events occured during a turning point in history, i.e. end of the world tier cataclysmic shitshow where god had to literally kill everyone or save them from themselves.
The only way to know is to wait till some nuclear showdown happens.
Because the miracles in the Bible were in the use of establishing the authority of the Bible
Shut up!!
If God cares so much about free will to the point that he allows famine, genocide, eternal damnation, and basically everything bad that has ever happened to make it more freer why didn't He mention that in the Bible
>T. Saints
Anon they haven't taught about the miracles of the Saints.
Lastly, our generation of ww2 and onward have had miracles through the blessed and saints intersections
howrver we are currently living through a chastisement or rather the prelude to the chastisement. Rather of God for our iniquities and if we don't look inward to ourselves for said punishment, we'll, we don't have to look far to see how bad things are.
God, I am sorry for my sins.
Have mercy on me.
Have mercy on us O'Lord.
>the bible is historically accurate
It isnt and hasnt been. Read the bible in terms of connotation, not in terms of denotation. Noah did not die at the age of 609 or whatever the frick it was, neither did his sons. No flood happened where this boat was needed orwhatever.
If you want to read connotation, maybe try John first in the 2nd testament. Id say its the most beautiful mystical teaching that gets you right started with the experience of miracles today.
Protip: are you the bulb that carries the light, or are you the light of which the bulb is but a vehicle?
Pic unrelated
>divide 609 by 12
>almost 51 years
Suddenly it makes sense.
>God created earth in 7 days. 7 is 3 + 4, the pi number is 3.14, the missing number of 3 and 4 is 1. God is one.
Muh Christian logic
>Herotodus isn’t historically accurate because the Homeric Epics aren’t
he didn't, there are any number of faith healings and miracles
Well look at it like this: Mr. Beast also stops giving money to the poor as soon as the camera stops rolling.
He didn't.