Who created god?
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Who created god?
Talk religion
Talk religion
Who created god?
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God is not a creature
Neither is the universe.
Proof?
Literary device
So the universe is a creature according to Dirk?
Was the crucifixion also a literary device? What about the tower of babel? How do you distinguish between historical accounts and literary devices?
Historical-grammatical hermeneutics
I see, so you just pick whichever interpretation is more convenient?
Is that what I said?
It's too soon to be losing track of the conversation, dirk !!hGWqjxceevY.
Then why do the New and Old Testaments ascribe qualities to him inherent only in creatures
>buzzword salad
Is he energy? Or, maybe, he is a singularity?
How do you know?
Revelation & logical necessity
But it's both has been revealed to me, and is logically necessary, that god is a creature?
Logical and revelatory proof? The prophets and apostles worked miracles to legitimize their revelation, and the first cause argument is ancient.
I've worked miracles as well that prove God is a creature.
Testimonies?
It's true. I was there.
500 people witnessed me walk on water in Utah.
I turned water into beer at a wedding in Rome, Georgia.
I saw him do it. It was incredible.
John 20:28-29
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
It's logically necessary that everything must come from something.
False
Every effect needs a cause. Everything that begins to exist must come from something.
That's what I said? Everything must come from something
The universe didn't begin to exist, therefore it doesn't require a cause.
Proof?
False
Do you have proof the universe did begin to exist?
My proof the universe did not begin to exist:
In black holes, where matter is condensed to a singularity, time and space are inversed. Time does not move forward or backward.
At the beginning of the universe, the universe was condensed into a singularity, similar to how a black hole is.
Therefore, time was not moving forward or backward at t = 0, until the Big Bang began expansion of the singularity.
Therefore, the universe has existed at all points in time.
>my proof the universe did not begin to exist
>at the beginning of the universe
"at the beginning of the universe" is the universe pre-Big Bang
The universe did not "begin to exist", it began in a timeless state different than it is today.
Read my post, I explained this.
This doesn't refute a "first mover" argument, but it does refute a first cause argument that has God create the universe ex nihilo.
>the universe did not begin to exist, it began
If God began without the Son being killed and raised from the dead, does that mean God began to exist at some point in time?
Yes, if god began then that means god began
So God began to exist if the Son was killed and raised from the dead?
That means the Christian God cannot be an uncaused cause.
Not what I said
I'm confused because I made that argument, and then you agreed with me.
So again, I said
>If God began without the Son being killed and raised from the dead, does that mean God began to exist at some point in time?
Where I am a wrong here?
I'm using your criticism of my argument that the universe began in a timeless state, and then changed with the Big Bang, and applying it to God.
God BEGAN without the Son being killed and resurrected. Death and Resurrection are a change in the state of the Son, part of the Godhead.
The inclusion of the first "began" makes your statement a tautology
God did not begin in biblical/christian theology. That is quite literally the meaning of the name YHWH.
Agree or disagree:
God began without the Son being killed and resurrected.
At Genesis chapter 1, had the Son been killed and resurrected from the dead?
I just said "god did not begin"
Why can't you answer the question?
Was the Son killed and resurrected at the time period of Genesis 1?
You just changed the question
God is logical
God is a being
It is not logically necessary for everything to come from something. I just explained this to you.
Everything that begins to exist must come from something. Every effect has a cause, but not every cause is an effect. First cause. You're like 2500 years late to this question in philosophy.
I asked the same question:
Why does this make you so uncomfortable?
I can phrase it differently a third time for you:
Was the Son always killed and resurrected?
Was there a period in time where the Son was not killed and resurrected?
I'm comfortable, you're just illiterate.
>God began without the Son being killed and resurrected.
No, because God did not begin
>Was the son killed and resurrected at the time of Genesis 1?
No, the crucifixion and resurrection happened in time, and at a different time than the creation
>Was the son always killed and resurrected
No, same as above
>Was there a period in time where the son was not killed and resurrected
Every point in time because the crucifixion and resurrection are different overlapping moments.
Reading it in past, not past perfect, tense, there was a time before the crucifixion and there is now time after the crucifixion.
Absurd
>Reading it in past, not past perfect, tense, there was a time before the crucifixion and there is now time after the crucifixion
ok so we both agree, something can be uncaused but change over time.
So the universe initially was a singularity, is no longer a singularity since the Big Bang, but has always existed.
>initially
You just keep contradicting yourself. Do you get that?
Was the Son initially crucified and resurrected at the beginning, i.e. Genesis 1?
No
Do you see the contradictions I keep pointing out?
Proof?
Which contradictions?
I'll quote you and make a comparison:
>Reading it in past, not past perfect, tense, there was a time before the crucifixion and there is now time after the crucifixion.
There was a time before the Big Bang, and there is now a time after the Big Bang.
These contradictions
All you're saying now is that the big bang was an event in time
>All you're saying now is that the big bang was an event in time
Yes.
The crucifixion and resurrection was also an event in time.
There could very well be a contradiction in my argument, but it would equally apply to the Christian God.
What's your argument?
You're free to read my posts.
You said there was a contradiction in that the universe began without the expansion of Big Bang, and the universe being pre-existent.
I responded that there would therefore be a contradiction between God beginning without the Son being killed and resurrected, and God being uncaused.
In both cases, there is a change in the state of the thing, but the thing has always existed and is uncaused.
>you said...
No, I didnt
You are not understanding the contractions and I don't know how to make you. You're saying something did not begin and did begin in the same thought.
>there would be a contradiction between god beginning without the son being killed and resurrected, and god being uncaused
Yes, that is a contradiction. You're saying "god beginning" and "god being uncaused". You are not understanding the concept.
As I said, god did not begin in christian theology
Your whole argument depends on misquoting me and being anal with language.
I said several times that the universe BEGAN without the Big Bang.
As far as I am aware, in your world view God BEGAN without the Son being killed and resurrected.
If you then say "uh well God did not begin" you're just refusing to address the argument itself and are objecting to the use of specific verbs in contexts you don't like..
>I said several times that the universe BEGAN
I KNOW
Proving my point Dirk. kek.
What was the other half of those sentences?
This is honestly pathetic, Dirk. It's plain as day what his point is and the only thing you can do is try to avoid it by equivocating on what he means by "begin". You're just demonstrating that you have no argument.
>equivocating
?????
>as far as I am aware, in your world view god BEGAN
What did I just say moron?
Logical necessity.
Not him (obviously) but logic actually cannot sustain this. Everything having to come from something leaves you with infinite regress.
>Absurd
But enough about first cause theory.
Refute it
Everything must come from something.
I see where you got confused. Causation is an effect. Hope that cleared things up for you.
Is god illogical, or is god not a thing, or is it not logically necessary for everything to come from something?
Are you also confused when anons say you are fuming with rage, because steam isn't literally coming out of your ears?
How can it be false? It's logically necessary.
Hello, I would like 11 apples please
>And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
God
Goddesses and Gods were created by Satan the Devil and his Angels
Creator Devil Satan
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/things-to-do/solstice/winter-solstice-2023
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/things-to-do/solstice/conditions-of-entry
come meet the creator this december twenty-second for free
Hail Satan
The human intellect.
watching dirk sperg out has convinced me that god is not real
God is real.
>inb4 prove it
I healed 20 lepers last weekend.
500 people witnessed it. Ask any of them, and they'll tell you it's true.
So who?
The primordial Chaos Dragon.
Read the Enuma Elish.
Who created the primordial Chaos Dragon?
So what's the difference from a singularity (besides a singularity could cope with iron chariots)?
The primordial Chaos Dragon is uncreated.
It birthed the gods, and the Dragon was smote by Lord Marduk, who used it's body to create the world.
Nobody. God is uncreated.
God existed before creation took shape. He IS uncreated Light and darkness does Not understand or grasp him. IT does Not understand while He IS the one WHO understands, glorified and everlasting.