John 10:29-30 >[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one.
Jesus is saying here, "my father is the greatest and I am my Dad" - which is a large part of why he was killed. Such blasphemy from one who was known by his followers as "Rabbi" didn't sit well with most other israelites for obvious reasons.
In what sense are they "one" ? In the sense "I am my dad" ? That's not what he said
We do have a clue of what he meant though. Later, Jesus PRAYED that his disciples could “ALL BE ONE,” just as he and his Father ARE ONE.—John 17:20-23
In what sense were his disicples were to be ONE ? In the sense of unity, cohesion. They had to work together as a team, just as Jesus and God are working in unison.
5 months ago
Anonymous
John 17: 20-21 >“I ask not only on behalf of these but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us,
He means one in purpose
If he didn't want his followers to worship him as a God he certainly did nothing to disabuse them of that impulse. It would be hilarious though if most Christians were worshipping a guy who would be horrified to learn that he was being worshipped in the first place.
5 months ago
JWanon
>If he didn't want his followers to worship him as a God
Because he's not
5 months ago
Anonymous
How do you explain John 8:57-59? >57 So the israelites said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself
5 months ago
Alectorios
That’s the best evidence I have seen in this thread so far.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>anon, you know I had a crush on you in highschool, right? You didn't even notice the signals I was givi- >LIAR. WHEN DID YOU SAY BACK THEN "I HAD A CRUSH ON YOU" VERBATIM?
>In what sense are they "one" ?
Read the context. It's about how no-one can pluck believers out of either the Father or Jesus' hands. Jesus is literally saying that his authority is tantamount to the Father's.
>If he didn't want his followers to worship him as a God
Because he's not
He is.
5 months ago
JWanon
>It's about how no-one can pluck believers out of either the Father or Jesus' hands
Because they are one in purpose
>He is
Not
How do you explain John 8:57-59? >57 So the israelites said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself
>Because they are one in purpose
The angels are also one in purpose with God, yet can an angel say "no-one can pluck you out of my hand?" Jesus is claiming that his power is equal to the Father in that no-one can pluck believers out of their hands.
5 months ago
JWanon
>The angels are also one in purpose with God
Jesus is even more
5 months ago
Anonymous
How can you be more "one in purpose" ? That makes zero sense. Either you're one in purpose, or you're not.
But applying this logic to John 17:20-23 that you quoted, that means the way in which the believers will be one isn't the exact same in which Jesus and the Father are one, right? So you can't use that verse to disprove the Trinity, then, because Jesus isn't necessarily saying that the believers will possess a oneness in like manner to the oneness that Jesus has with the Father. So there's no discrepancy.
5 months ago
JWanon
>How can you be more "one in purpose" ?
Simple, Jehovah ‘fully knew’ his Son from his intimate association with him during countless ages past (Matthew 11:27)
It is extremely important to realize that God did not send some angel to rescue mankind. He made the supreme sacrifice of sending his only-begotten Son, “the one he was specially fond of.”—Proverbs 8:30; John 3:16.
This is true because Only Jehovah’s firstborn Son could measure up to the special needs of the situation involving sinful mankind.
He is such an image of his heavenly Father in showing affection for members of the divinely produced family that he is without equal among the sons of God. Since all other intelligent creatures were brought into existence by means of him, his affection for them would certainly be abundant.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Shut your mouth and stop preaching a sermon. I said, how can you be more "one in purpose." To be one implies that there's no division between the two. You can't be "more one," that makes zero logical sense.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Shut your mouth and stop preaching a sermon.
Jesus dude, the Jehova's Witness anon wasn't even being rude or anything
5 months ago
Anonymous
Doesn't matter. Was Elymas the sorcerer rude to Paul when Paul cursed at him and struck him blind in Acts 13:10?
5 months ago
Anonymous
Paul was in the wrong there too. Of all people to attack someone for practicing magic, it probably shouldn't be the guy most famous for worshipping his sorcerer friend.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Paul was in the wrong there too.
Acts 13:9 - the verse right before - says that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit when he did this. Are you calling the Holy Spirit in the wrong?
5 months ago
Anonymous
I'm sure he felt that way, sure, but feeling justified by the "holy spirit" (or any other spirit) doesn't make a violent act of hypocrisy any less hypocritical.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Where does the verse say he "felt justified?" Piss off and stop butting in.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Reading comprehension surprisingly isn't your strong suit lol.
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Several translations phrase John 8:58 the correct way by which Jesus was actually illustrating how long he has existed. One, for instance: >"Jesus answered, "The truth is, I EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS EVEN BORN!" (NLT)
http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2012/05/john-858-did-jesus-really-say-i-am.html?m=1
I'm sorry JWanon, but I still don't see how that changes the meaning any. By saying, "I existed before Abraham" he's still heavily implying he's God - or at the very least not human.
5 months ago
JWanon
Jesus was a spirit creature in heaven before he was born as a human on earth. Jesus himself said: “I have come down from heaven.”—John 6:38; 8:23.
God created Jesus before he created anything else. Regarding Jesus, the Bible says:
“He is the firstborn of all creation.”—Colossians 1:15.
He is “the beginning of the creation by God.”—Revelation 3:14.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecy about the one “whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago.”—Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:4-6.
>Did Jesus really say this thing the Bible says he said? >No, the bible is corrupted by Paul and Constantine!
what is the meaningful difference between JWs and Muslims?
Consider the following more accurate translations:
"I was in existence before Abraham was ever born." (The Living Bible)
"Before Abraham was, I existed." (New Living Translation, 1995 Edition)
"Before Abraham was, I already was." (Bible in Worldwide English)
"Before Abraham was, I have been." (New American Standard Bible, Footnote, 1960 and 1973 Edition)
"From before Abraham was, I have been." (The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.)
"I existed before Abraham was born!" (The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.)
"Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am." (Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.)
"I was alive before Abraham was born!" (The Simple English Bible)
5 months ago
Anonymous
I feel like that kind of undercuts his whole sacrifice in the first place if God is essentially saying, "only the blood of my best underling Angel can convince me not to torture all humans forever."
5 months ago
JWanon
See:
>How can you be more "one in purpose" ?
Simple, Jehovah ‘fully knew’ his Son from his intimate association with him during countless ages past (Matthew 11:27)
It is extremely important to realize that God did not send some angel to rescue mankind. He made the supreme sacrifice of sending his only-begotten Son, “the one he was specially fond of.”—Proverbs 8:30; John 3:16.
This is true because Only Jehovah’s firstborn Son could measure up to the special needs of the situation involving sinful mankind.
He is such an image of his heavenly Father in showing affection for members of the divinely produced family that he is without equal among the sons of God. Since all other intelligent creatures were brought into existence by means of him, his affection for them would certainly be abundant.
5 months ago
Anonymous
My point still stands. God isn't sacrificing himself, he's just substituting human sacrifice for angel sacrifice which makes the entire New Testament a lot more horrifying, existentially speaking.
5 months ago
JWanon
God cannot die anon
5 months ago
Anonymous
>Did Jesus really say this thing the Bible says he said? >No, the bible is corrupted by Paul and Constantine!
what is the meaningful difference between JWs and Muslims?
John 17: 20-21 >“I ask not only on behalf of these but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us,
He means one in purpose
John 10:29-30
>[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one.
Jesus is saying here, "my father is the greatest and I am my Dad" - which is a large part of why he was killed. Such blasphemy from one who was known by his followers as "Rabbi" didn't sit well with most other israelites for obvious reasons.
He didn't say " I am my Dad", why are you adding to Scripture ?
"I and my Father are one" = "I am my father"
In what sense are they "one" ? In the sense "I am my dad" ? That's not what he said
We do have a clue of what he meant though. Later, Jesus PRAYED that his disciples could “ALL BE ONE,” just as he and his Father ARE ONE.—John 17:20-23
In what sense were his disicples were to be ONE ? In the sense of unity, cohesion. They had to work together as a team, just as Jesus and God are working in unison.
If he didn't want his followers to worship him as a God he certainly did nothing to disabuse them of that impulse. It would be hilarious though if most Christians were worshipping a guy who would be horrified to learn that he was being worshipped in the first place.
>If he didn't want his followers to worship him as a God
Because he's not
How do you explain John 8:57-59?
>57 So the israelites said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself
That’s the best evidence I have seen in this thread so far.
>anon, you know I had a crush on you in highschool, right? You didn't even notice the signals I was givi-
>LIAR. WHEN DID YOU SAY BACK THEN "I HAD A CRUSH ON YOU" VERBATIM?
>In what sense are they "one" ?
Read the context. It's about how no-one can pluck believers out of either the Father or Jesus' hands. Jesus is literally saying that his authority is tantamount to the Father's.
He is.
>It's about how no-one can pluck believers out of either the Father or Jesus' hands
Because they are one in purpose
>He is
Not
See:
http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2012/05/john-858-did-jesus-really-say-i-am.html?m=1
>Because they are one in purpose
The angels are also one in purpose with God, yet can an angel say "no-one can pluck you out of my hand?" Jesus is claiming that his power is equal to the Father in that no-one can pluck believers out of their hands.
>The angels are also one in purpose with God
Jesus is even more
How can you be more "one in purpose" ? That makes zero sense. Either you're one in purpose, or you're not.
But applying this logic to John 17:20-23 that you quoted, that means the way in which the believers will be one isn't the exact same in which Jesus and the Father are one, right? So you can't use that verse to disprove the Trinity, then, because Jesus isn't necessarily saying that the believers will possess a oneness in like manner to the oneness that Jesus has with the Father. So there's no discrepancy.
>How can you be more "one in purpose" ?
Simple, Jehovah ‘fully knew’ his Son from his intimate association with him during countless ages past (Matthew 11:27)
It is extremely important to realize that God did not send some angel to rescue mankind. He made the supreme sacrifice of sending his only-begotten Son, “the one he was specially fond of.”—Proverbs 8:30; John 3:16.
This is true because Only Jehovah’s firstborn Son could measure up to the special needs of the situation involving sinful mankind.
He is such an image of his heavenly Father in showing affection for members of the divinely produced family that he is without equal among the sons of God. Since all other intelligent creatures were brought into existence by means of him, his affection for them would certainly be abundant.
Shut your mouth and stop preaching a sermon. I said, how can you be more "one in purpose." To be one implies that there's no division between the two. You can't be "more one," that makes zero logical sense.
>Shut your mouth and stop preaching a sermon.
Jesus dude, the Jehova's Witness anon wasn't even being rude or anything
Doesn't matter. Was Elymas the sorcerer rude to Paul when Paul cursed at him and struck him blind in Acts 13:10?
Paul was in the wrong there too. Of all people to attack someone for practicing magic, it probably shouldn't be the guy most famous for worshipping his sorcerer friend.
>Paul was in the wrong there too.
Acts 13:9 - the verse right before - says that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit when he did this. Are you calling the Holy Spirit in the wrong?
I'm sure he felt that way, sure, but feeling justified by the "holy spirit" (or any other spirit) doesn't make a violent act of hypocrisy any less hypocritical.
Where does the verse say he "felt justified?" Piss off and stop butting in.
Reading comprehension surprisingly isn't your strong suit lol.
>Several translations phrase John 8:58 the correct way by which Jesus was actually illustrating how long he has existed. One, for instance:
>"Jesus answered, "The truth is, I EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS EVEN BORN!" (NLT)
http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2012/05/john-858-did-jesus-really-say-i-am.html?m=1
I'm sorry JWanon, but I still don't see how that changes the meaning any. By saying, "I existed before Abraham" he's still heavily implying he's God - or at the very least not human.
Jesus was a spirit creature in heaven before he was born as a human on earth. Jesus himself said: “I have come down from heaven.”—John 6:38; 8:23.
God created Jesus before he created anything else. Regarding Jesus, the Bible says:
“He is the firstborn of all creation.”—Colossians 1:15.
He is “the beginning of the creation by God.”—Revelation 3:14.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecy about the one “whose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago.”—Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:4-6.
Consider the following more accurate translations:
"I was in existence before Abraham was ever born." (The Living Bible)
"Before Abraham was, I existed." (New Living Translation, 1995 Edition)
"Before Abraham was, I already was." (Bible in Worldwide English)
"Before Abraham was, I have been." (New American Standard Bible, Footnote, 1960 and 1973 Edition)
"From before Abraham was, I have been." (The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.)
"I existed before Abraham was born!" (The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.)
"Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am." (Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.)
"I was alive before Abraham was born!" (The Simple English Bible)
I feel like that kind of undercuts his whole sacrifice in the first place if God is essentially saying, "only the blood of my best underling Angel can convince me not to torture all humans forever."
See:
My point still stands. God isn't sacrificing himself, he's just substituting human sacrifice for angel sacrifice which makes the entire New Testament a lot more horrifying, existentially speaking.
God cannot die anon
>Did Jesus really say this thing the Bible says he said?
>No, the bible is corrupted by Paul and Constantine!
what is the meaningful difference between JWs and Muslims?
John 17: 20-21
>“I ask not only on behalf of these but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us,
He means one in purpose
Wait. Isn’t God in everything including us? Isn’t God the father of all?
>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
...
>And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us
Was a god*
Where in the Bible does it say "Verily I say, thou shalt shit up anime image boards with thine tedious neckbeard atheist posts?"
Claiming to be a bearer of the divine name and claiming to be one with Jehovah would also have been seen as blasphemy