It's good to be a Protestant.
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It's good to be a Protestant.
Talk religion
Talk religion
It's good to be a Protestant.
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Protestantism is heresy.
Sola fide is anathema
Sola scriptura is anathema
If you take Catholicism seriously then basically everyone even most Catholics are heretics
Do you think someone goes to Hell for rejecting the filioque? No? Then you deny the Athanasian Creed. Enjoy Catholic Hell.
If you hate truth, then certainly.
I hate being Reformed bros. Multiple times I have liked a Calvinist girl and she ended up being trans.
Industrious little worker bees. If it wasn't for Protestantism Europe would never have reached the heights it did.
Explain how there's predestination for salvation if God desires that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9) (meaning those who perish do so of their own free will)
Calvin's great. I think a lot of people in America have a very weird conception of who he was as a person and what he wrote, due to the failures of American "Calvinist" churches. After reading his Institutes, I realized that I couldn't exactly disagree with anything he was saying. It was all thoroughly argued and backed up with scripture and words from the saints (Jerome and Augustine to name the ones I remember him quoting the most). Really, the only way I could see someone disagreeing with Calvin would be if they hadn't really read the Bible. Predestination for instance, is all over the Bible, yet people attack the idea from the outset without even considering that if they are Christians at all, they must believe in predestination. Now, what people are confusing predestination for is "double predestination", which is really just the idea of predestination taken to its logical conclusion. It's a hard pill to swallow for many, though.
I recommend reading Chapter 21 of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion "Eternal Election, or God’s Predestination of Some to Salvation, And of Others to Destruction"
>Others, desirous of remedying this evil, will have all mention of predestination to be as it were buried; they teach men to avoid every question concerning it as they would a precipice. Though their moderation is to be commended, in judging that mysteries ought to be handled with such great sobriety, yet, as they descend too low, they have little influence on the mind of man, which refuses to submit to unreasonable restraints. To observe, therefore, the legitimate boundary on this side also, we must recur to the word of the Lord, which affords a certain rule for the understanding. For the Scripture is the school of the Holy Spirit, in which, as nothing necessary and useful to be known is omitted, so nothing is taught which it is not beneficial to know.
And here's some scripture.
2 Timothy 1:9-10
>Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
2 Timothy 2:19-21
>Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Ephesians 1:9-12
>Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
John 15:16
>Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Romans 9:15
>For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
>And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luke 3:6
Are you a universalist? In case you are, the Bible is wholly against universal reconciliation. Let's look at the context of this verse.
Luke 3:3-9
>And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Now, what is Luke referencing here? He paraphrases Isaiah 40:3-5
>The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
So we see that not all men will be granted salvation, but all will see it (His glory), and so they will not be able to make excuses for their sins, as Paul says in Romans 1:20
>For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Now let's look more at what the Bible has to say on universal reconciliation.
John 15:3-6
>Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Matthew 7:18-22
>A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 13:37-43
>He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 25:38-44
>When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Psalm 143:9-12
>Deliver me, O LORD, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me. Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness. Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake bring my soul out of trouble. And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant.
Revelation 14:9-11
>And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
>Are you a universalist?
Not exactly. I'm a Mormon, so a lot of people don't even think we quite qualify as Christians at all due to how far off the Nicene reservation we are. We have tiered heavens. Our Biblical basis for this thinking are a handful of quotes, and I think I'm misremembering a few but the ones that come to mind are:
>I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 2:12
>2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:2-3
There are several Gnostic texts we take somewhat seriously as well, in addition to Mormon scriptures which we of course take more or less at face value, that support the tiered heaven interpretation. However, the attached image conveys more or less what we currently believe to be the case.
>Not exactly. I'm a Mormon
Interesting. I was just looking into books about the Mormons a while ago. If you're familiar with any of these, can you tell me if they're what you would call accurate?
>Bowman, Matthew; The Mormon People: The Making of an American Faith
>Furniss, Norman F.; The Mormon Conflict 1850-1859
>Stegner, Wallace; The Gathering of Zion: The Story of the Mormon Trail
>Bringhurst, Newell G.; Brigham Young and the Expanding American Frontier
>Arrington, Leonard J.; Brigham Young: American Moses
>Arrington, Leonard J.; Great Basin Kingdom: An Economic History of the Latter-day Saints, 1830-1900
Because of how divisive the Mormon question is, I would avoid tertiary sources and focus near-exclusively on primary sources. Read what Joseph Smith wrote. Read what Mormons wrote. Read what non-Mormons wrote about Mormons while Joseph Smith and his immediate successors were alive.
So some examples might include:
>The Mormon scriptures themselves (Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine & Covenants)
>Government documents pertaining to Joseph Smith, Mormonism, and Mormons (Joseph Smith's legal/criminal records, Executive Order 44 of Missouri, the 1890 manifesto)
>Non-Mormon contemporary writings such as newspapers covering Moroni's alleged visitation by Moroni, which is often cast in a skeptical light, or academics who said that his translations of the Book of Abraham were bullshit because they were based on, in part, Egyptian funerary scrolls, and that "reformed Egyptian" isn't a thing
Basically, I'm advising against relying on tertiary sources regarding Joseph Smith and Mormonism because almost all of them are either Mormons coping about how Joseph Smith dindu nuffin rong ever or antimos malding about how Joseph Smith couldn't have possibly been legit in any capacity because he did/said bad things. It's all extremely tainted and biased. Just stick to primary sources like I listed.
God's love will be like hell to the wicked
Predestination in general is a pretty popular theological view. Calvin taught a specific type of predestination which says that a person cannot lose saving grace, and that certain people are created for the sole purpose of being sent to hell, meaning Christ's sacrifice wasn't efficacious for their salvation: it was only for the predestined elect. A non-Calvinist view of predestination might say that certain people are destined to go to hell, but that they can receive saving grace and lose it in the interim, and that it is *possible* for them to be saved (because Christ died for all the world) but they will choose to reject salvation.
>Explain how there's predestination for salvation if God desires that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9)
Go back one verse.
>But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
In the last nanosecond of any person's corporeal life, the Lord has an eternity to wait for that soul to repent and embrace Him. The Lord's desire that none shall perish is fulfilled by universal predestination.
UH OH YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE THE DIRK MAD
DIRK
THE MAN WITH A REFORMED SMIRK
It certainly is good and beautiful.
https://x.com/potamopotos/status/1690413349887000576?s=20
The religion of man, not of God lol
Although I don't think Christianity is true, if I were a Christian, I would definitely be a Calvinist. Seems like the most intellectually consistent line of thinking to me.
My main criticism of protestantism is essentially identical to my main criticism of atheism: it's boring, lifeless, and more than a little girly.
Some Prods are high church, like Lutherans and Presbyterians. You seem like you'd prefer that over low-church denoms such as Baptists.
Compared to what?
Anglican liturgy + prayer book + official Bible translation mogs every other denomination
Lol that image is so true
>It's in our tradition
But these church fathers, Popes, and bishops say something different
>That doesn't count, it's why we need the church to decide
What does it use to decide?
>The church fathers, Popes and bishop
>official Bible translation
ESV? I like it, but I find that the greater effort required to read the KJV usually yields dividends.
I'm not saying he was a israelite i'm just saying that he was very israelite looking
Are christcucks willing to suck on BBC to prove their israelite-worshipping sect is more based?
No, but you are.
Not related, but I come from a Baptist family, but I am considering converting to either the Presbyterian or Lutheran church. I agree mostly with the Presbyterian / Calvinists, but I have attended a Lutheran service and preferred it more. I am meeting with the pastor of the Lutheran Church I attended later this week. I am still not sure and if you have any additional reading, I would greatly appreciate it.
Not sure but I would listen to Jordan Cooper on Youtube on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--gHDhPGRxA
1) The Spirituality of the Cross by Gene Edward Veith
2) The Way of Salvation in the Lutheran Church by George Henry Gerberding
3) The Saving Truth: Doctrine for Laypeople by Kurt Marquart
4) Grace Upon Grace by John Kleinig
5) For God so Loved the World by Lyle Lang
>No Bondage of the Will
>No On Christian Liberty
>No Book of Concord
>No Aubsburg Confession
>No Small Catechism
>Two Natures in Christ by Chemnitz
I've seen some of these guy's videos before and they weren't bad, but I really just don't understand this list.