Where does the Evangelical over-emphasis on personal salvation come from?

Where does the Evangelical over-emphasis on personal salvation come from?

Because more traditionally minded Christians tend to emphasize the communal aspect of their faith, sometimes expressed in their sacraments especially in the Eucharist/Holy Communion, as well as the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth and universal justice and charity among mankind. They will speak of the collective of Christians as the Church. Catholics and more traditional Protestants think like this, but differ in details.

But I rarely ever hear this language from Evangelicals, the latter's is more Biblical just reading the New Testament, but I can't find the phrase "relationship with Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" anywhere in the Bible.

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  1. 5 months ago
    Ο Σολιταίρ

    >but I can't find the phrase "relationship with Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" anywhere in the Bible.

    very true; what they mean is that they believe in works salvation; maintaining a "relationship" with Christ = doing good works so you don't lose your salvation
    And of course their good works are evil anyways
    t. Evangelical (NIFB)

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      >a "relationship" with Christ

      How can you make light of the indwelling? Get straight.

      14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

      15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

      Protip, forgiveness is work. It's something Jesus wants *you* to do.

      • 5 months ago
        Ο Σολιταίρ

        Make light of the indwelling?
        Do you believe in sinless perfection?

        • 5 months ago
          Anonymous

          yeah dawg, you know the whole part about Jesus living in your heart and you living in his? That's what I mean by indwellin

          it's the reason we celebrate communion with the saints

          >sinless perfection
          wut
          you know there are certain things that Jesus tells you to do, right?

          • 5 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            >you know there are certain things that Jesus tells you to do, right?

            Yes, he commands us to be perfect in all respects. If you think that your salvation is dependent on being perfect, you're a fool.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Christians should be perfect and free from sin as the NT tells us (Romams 6:5-11, 1 John 3:6-9), by virtue of our sanctification through the waters of regeneration, as members of the elect. But clearly there is a real problem of praxis as it is evident many who are justified in the name of the Lord backslide into sin, as even the authors of the NT recognize. This then has lead to centuries of debate regarding the nature of perseverance, which everybody affirms, but not everyone agrees on the details, especially because it also raises questions about predestination.

          • 5 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            >This then has lead to centuries of debate regarding the nature of perseverance, which everybody affirms

            I mean; no. Not everybody affirms this. Specifically cathodox. As well as anyone who says that one can "lose their salvation"
            That would be in contradiction to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Specifically cathodox
            That's a misinterpretation of the doctrine. Perseverance of the saints =/= eternal security or unconditional perseverance. The Catholic Church very much affirms this doctrine, its stance is pretty much that of St. Augustine of Hippo: Perseverance is a gift that can be prayed for, that the elect receive this gift to final justification, and that it is ultimately a mystery on who receives this gift so all should pray for it lest they fall away from grace unto damnation.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            If we were told to be perfect, there would be no need to tell us to forgive one another.

            See, if you're already perfect you don't need forgiveness. But we aren't, so Jesus tells us to forgive that we may be forgiven.

            It's how we respond to Jesus' commands that determines the nature of our relationship with him, and with his church.

          • 5 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            >If we were told to be perfect, there would be no need to tell us to forgive one another.
            I really don't know what you're trying to say; because Jesus himself gives both these commands.
            In fact, his exhortation to forgive is AFTER he tells us to be perfect.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            I'm trying to say that Jesus told you explicitly, in no uncertain terms, that if you don't forgive others that God will not forgive you.

            Do onto others as you would have them do onto you, with the measure you mete it will be measured onto you, etc. It's really quite coherent and consistent teaching.

            When Jesus says to be perfect, he doesn't outright qualify it like he does explain the Lord's Prayer immediately after giving it.

            See, you have missed the context of his teaching.

            44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

            45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

            46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

            >he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good

            By following his teaching to love your enemy, we become more like God who is perfect.

          • 5 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            >By following his teaching to love your enemy, we become more like God who is perfect.
            >I'm trying to say that Jesus told you explicitly, in no uncertain terms, that if you don't forgive others that God will not forgive you.

            Yes.
            There is no one who has perfectly forgiven ALL others for ALL things besides Jesus Christ.
            What do you think it means when the Bible describes Christ as "dying for our sins"?
            There is the standard of perfection (which Christ achieves, and those who love Christ desire to follow) and then there is our salvation (which is a "free gift" by* Jesus Christ).

            >by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

            He justifies us by* bearing our iniquities; not by giving us power to be perfect in this* life.
            >if we [those in Christ, believers] say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >There is no one who has perfectly forgiven ALL others for ALL things besides Jesus Christ.

            That's not what he tells you to do.

            He tells you that if you don't forgive others who trespass against *you* personally, God won't forgive you who has likewise sinned against him.

            It is a very straightforward instruction, but following it is very hard sometimes. But it was harder, much harder for him to bear the sin of the whole world.

            If Jesus didn't think we were capable of emulating his example, he wouldn't have told us to be perfect.

            >giving us power to be perfect in this* life

            But he did show you the way to be more like God, right now in all your limited capacity. To be more perfect.

            It's to love your enemies, to do good to those who hurt you. All these are within your power.

          • 5 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            >Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >therefore

            do you know what this word means?
            It indicates that something important was said beforehand, from which the current statement follows.

            X therefore Y
            in this case, X is God's perfection illustrated through him giving light and water to all men regardless of their station or their individual righteousness

            therefore be more perfect, like God is, by also doing good things for people who don't deserve it

            you know, exactly like how Jesus does

            it's amazing the mental gymnastics some protestants will go through to defend their cherished presuppositions from the glaring contradictions against them in scripture, even the most clear instruction in the Sermon on the Mount isn't beyond equivocation

          • 5 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            >even the most clear instruction in the Sermon on the Mount isn't beyond equivocation
            ...saidst thou as thou equivocatest "be perfect as your Father in heaven"

            >therefore be more perfect, like God is, by also doing good things for people who don't deserve it
            in practice; this is how Christians apply it. Yes.
            Have you considered that the free gift of salvation is one of those good things which God does for those who don't deserve it?
            Whatever you are disagreeing on specifically. Make it known.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            I'm not equivocating, I'm expounding.

            Jesus literally tells you that if you don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven. He does this immediately after telling you to proper way to pray, and explains in no uncertain detail what part of that prayer means. Because that's a very important part of the prayer and he doesn't want anyone to be confused.

            Then you bring up another verse and claim that it means you don't need to forgive people to be forgiven, but I tell you what it really means by explaining the immediate context in which the statement was made and you react negatively.

          • 5 months ago
            Ο Σολιταίρ

            You are spiritually in the state of the rich young ruler.
            Truly consider Christ's words on both righteousness and salvation.

            One last thing; those who are saved; they receive the punishment for their sins in the body* and not in the spirit (the spirit has the righteousness of Christ imputed* to it). They will never be in danger of Hell; but both in this mortal body, and at the resurrection, they shall be punished and rewarded according to their works, respectively.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            You know you need to forgive others to be forgiven, right?

            Imagine asking forgiveness from God while you withhold it from other people.

            You'd be a hypocrite, because while you ask forgiveness you are unwilling to give it yourself.

            Don't be deceived, this is one of the foundational truths of the Christian faith. It explains literally the Lord's Prayer, is given by Jesus immediately after delivering the Lord's Prayer for the first time.

            There are many who simply do not understand it, and others who deliberately mislead some into thinking it means what it doesn't.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I'm trying to say that Jesus told you explicitly, in no uncertain terms, that if you don't forgive others that God will not forgive you.
            Luke 17:3 explains that you do not forgive anyone unless they repent first.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Forgiveness doesn't do the forgiven any good if they aren't repentant.

            But it does good for the person who is doing the forgiving. Loads of good.

  2. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    The ideal of a personal salvation has always been around in Christianity, as well as intertwined with the community aspects. However, I suspect that the Evangelical Christian variety of the last century or so has come back with some ideas from mainstream American culture, such as the emphasis on rugged individualism. That, as a mentality, is rather foreign to cultures without the colonial/frontier milieu with which America developed around. Many other Christians around the world are at least fairly significantly less attuned to the rugged individualist ideal that permeates much of American Christianity.

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      Not only that but Europeans and the rest of the world internalize their collectivism just like our individualism which both play out in egregious manners. They’re both faulty in their own respective ways.

  3. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    Personal salvation came from the Protestants in the 16th century. Martin Luther famously "discovered" that you are saved "by faith alone" (sola fide), and he wasn't the only one. They cited mainly from Paul's letters in the New Testament. Specific phrases like "close, personal relationship with Jesus" is more recent, but it stems from that same Protestant belief that you are saved by believing in Jesus and not by performing rituals or works.

    • 5 months ago
      Ο Σολιταίρ

      Augustine alleged that this belief was fairly popular in his time.
      He said it was wrong; but still.

  4. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    > Where does the Evangelical over-emphasis on personal salvation come from?
    That’s oxymoronic. One cannot over-emphasis one’s salvation, it’s literally the most important thing in your life.

    >Because more traditionally minded Christians
    What determines that.
    >tend to emphasize the communal aspect of their faith, sometimes expressed in their sacraments especially in the Eucharist/Holy Communion
    Well some groups prioritise the sacraments as the means to salvation. Rather than Sol Fide it’s Sola Sacrementa. And in that case its just as focused on personal salvation it’s just tying that salvation as through the community rather than through christ.
    >as well as the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth
    Most christians including evangelicals push that. The only ones that don’t are the likes of John Nelson Darby and “Heckin death to the world” tier Palamites.

    >But I rarely ever hear this language from Evangelicals
    Your either very unlucky or lying.
    >the latter's is more Biblical
    No, biblically Christ saves, not a community.
    >just reading the New Testament, but I can't find the phrase "relationship with Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" anywhere in the Bible.
    That’s because it isn’t there. Neither are “salvation through gnosis”, “toll-houses” or “justified by sanctification” etc.
    Your are looking for repent and believe the gospel
    See Mark 1:15
    Acts 2:38
    Acts 20:21
    Romans 10:9
    Acts 3:19
    etc.
    And that gospel that you believe is important because it hinges on your unstanding of what Christ did on the cross IN RELATION to you.
    See 2 Corinthians 5:21
    & 1 John 2:2.

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