when did you realize that Eru Iluvatar is not a benevolent god but a lovecraftian mad puppeteer that enjoys watching his creations suffer?

when did you realize that Eru Iluvatar is not a benevolent god but a lovecraftian mad puppeteer that enjoys watching his creations suffer?

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  1. 7 months ago

    Tolkien was awesome. Silmarillion literally rewrites the Bible how it should be.

  2. 7 months ago

    t. melkor

  3. 7 months ago

    Morgoth did nothing wrong

  4. 7 months ago

    Tolkien identified with Sauron.

    The ring is a metaphor for the story itself, Sauron poured his essence into it just like Tolkien did with the LOTR. The undoing of the ring destroyed Sauron, and the end of the LOTR destroyed Tolkien in a similar way.

    • 7 months ago

      Shit low IQ take

      • 7 months ago

        I have more brainlet takes on Tolkien.

        The hobbits are unreliable narrators, and are characterized chiefly by the motif of their naievite. They are like the soldiers Tolkien went to war with, they really believed their enemies were unredeemable evil monsters. By the end their innocence is broken, the Shire is broken.

        LOTR is Westron propaganda, the Red Book was edited by men after it was taken to the archives of Gondor.

        When Sauron created the ring, he did so secretly. Tolkien also wrote the LOTR in secret, at least kept secret from all his professional colleagues. Sauron had a professional colleague too, Celebrimbor the master craftsman and King in Eregion.

        The more you critically examine the text, the more you see layers on layers of allegory and nuanced rhymes. Tolkien was famous for denying that he used allegory, but the reason he did this was to protect the suspension of disbelief so critical to truly understanding the work. This suspension of disbelief is exactly like the naievite of the hobbits, so critical to the very structure and canonical transmission of the tale that betraying it could destroy the entire venture.

        The hobbits, Frodo and Sam namely, *needed* to believe, really believe the old tales of they ever had a chance of dinding the inner strength necessary to complete their mission. Tolkien really needed to believe too, that's how he was able to create such a believable world.

        • 7 months ago

          If Frodo and Sam are seen as representatives of the audience, carrying the ring and the story forward with them page by page, step by step, Tolkien as Sauron becomes the most obvious motif. Aloof and unseen, distant and yet of pervasive and perverse influence. Always seeking it, searching for it in the deep places. It is precious to him.

          Frodo must never give in and use the ring, because it would mean losing his naievite and becoming like Sauron, like Tolkien. He would know what it means to become master of the ring, master of the story. It would destroy the suspension of disbelief necessary to see the story through to the end, to destroy it once and for all.

          Frodo's (the audience) naievite is his strength, it is necessary for the story to be completed. And Tolkien would do anything to protect the audience's naievite, just like he would ever guard the innocence of his children for whom he first spun these tales.

          • 7 months ago

            In the end, well just before the real ending at least, it had to be one who had lost his innocence long before to complete the story.

            Frodo loses his innocence. He fails the quest, he puts on the ring for good. The only thing that saved him was Gollum, at the cost of his very finger. Gollum took the ring from Frodo, and fell. How did he fall? It was the oath he took, the oath he kept.

            "I mean a danger to yourself alone. You swore a promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to your own undoing. Already you are being twisted. You revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back to Smeagol, you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. You will never get it back. In the last need, Smeagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Smeagol!"

            "... untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice. "Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."

            Gollum swore his oath by the One Ring, the very story demands his sacrifice. The wheel of fire, that is the Ring. Gollum makes himself the master of the Ring, and is destroyed like Sauron and at the same time. Compelled by the magic of the Ring itself, by the magic of the oath he swore by it. Compelled by the very lines written by Tolkien, the magic of Sauron.

    • 7 months ago

      the idea of sauron being a miltonian sympathetic villain came way after tolkien's death, probably by the nerds who made entire societies based on analizing his works.
      tolkien was a strict catholic, and catholics don't believe in character nuances, you're either good or bad. sauron was just a servant of satan for him.

      • 7 months ago

        Sauron had a bit of nuance actually; he briefly repents and Tolkien believed he was sincerely affectionate to his master like a mirror version of Sam

        • 7 months ago

          it's all fake, like when gollum apparently repents. the point is that if you've been touched by evil, you'll always be evil. at least that's the point tolkien makes

          • 7 months ago

            That's a bit of a misunderstanding of Tolkien. Tolkien felt that Gollum's repentance was genuine and thought Sauron was also repentent when he bowed to the angel at the end of War of wrath

          • 7 months ago

            >if you've been touched by evil, you'll always be evil
            Frodo was completely taken by the Ring at Mount Doom, but he was still allowed to cross the sea.

          • 7 months ago

            >gollum apparently repents

            Gollum threw himself into the fires of Doom with the ring deliberately, his true repentance in the end is unspoken. He saw his master fail, and knew what he had to do then and there because Frodo had literally told him previously he would cast himself into the fire.

          • 7 months ago

            It's meant to be ambiguous if its a deliberate suicide or a stupid accident guided by God

          • 7 months ago

            It's ambiguous because Frodo wrote it that way deliberately. The question is did Frodo murder Gollum or did Gollum willingly fall. Either way it doesn't look good for him, that's why it can be read as an accident.

            It's hard to imagine which option Frodo would have been most ashamed of. But I think Sam's foreshadowing after his famous lines at the Stairs indicates that Gollum did chose heroism in the end, it may have ever precipitated it.

  5. 7 months ago

    I feel sorry for Aulë

    • 7 months ago

      Should've made something nicer than angry hairy midgets
      Like a race of hot nymphos whose entire purpose is to sexually satisfy Men and Elves

  6. 7 months ago

    Yo uaren't supposed to look that much into it; but Eru like the abrahamic god raises the question of the problem of evil

    • 7 months ago


      No. Eru raises both hands.


  7. 7 months ago

    In a dark crevice between two great piers of rock they sat down:
    Frodo and Sam a little way within, and Gollum crouched upon the
    ground near the opening. There the hobbits took what they expected
    would be their last meal before they went down into the Nameless
    Land, maybe the last meal they would ever eat together. Some of
    the food of Gondor they ate, and wafers of the waybread of the Elves,
    and they drank a little. But of their water they were sparing and took
    only enough to moisten their dry mouths.
    ‘I wonder when we’ll find water again?’ said Sam. ‘But I suppose
    even over there they drink? Orcs drink, don’t they?’
    ‘Yes, they drink,’ said Frodo. ‘But do not let us speak of that.
    Such drink is not for us.’

    ‘Then all the more need to fill our bottles,’ said Sam. ‘But there
    isn’t any water up here: not a sound or a trickle have I heard. And
    anyway Faramir said we were not to drink any water in Morgul.’
    ‘No water flowing out of Imlad Morgul, were his words,’ said
    Frodo. ‘We are not in that valley now, and if we came on a spring
    it would be flowing into it and not out of it.’

    ‘I wouldn’t trust it,’ said Sam, ‘not till I was dying of thirst. There’s
    a wicked feeling about this place.’ He sniffed. ‘And a smell, I fancy.
    Do you notice it? A queer kind of a smell, stuffy. I don’t like it.’
    ‘I don’t like anything here at all,’ said Frodo, ‘step or stone, breath
    or bone. Earth, air and water all seem accursed. But so our path is

    ‘Yes, that’s so,’ said Sam. ‘And we shouldn’t be here at all, if we’d
    known more about it before we started. But I suppose it’s often
    that way. The brave things in the old tales and songs, Mr. Frodo:
    adventures, as I used to call them. I used to think that they were
    things the wonderful folk of the stories went out and looked for,
    because they wanted them, because they were exciting and life was
    a bit dull, a kind of a sport, as you might say. But that’s not the way
    of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the
    mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually – their
    paths were laid that way, as you put it. But I expect they had lots of
    chances, like us, of turning back, only they didn’t. And if they had,
    we shouldn’t know, because they’d have been forgotten. We hear
    about those as just went on – and not all to a good end, mind you;
    at least not to what folk inside a story and not outside it call a good
    end. You know, coming home, and finding things all right, though
    not quite the same – like old Mr. Bilbo. But those aren’t always the
    best tales to hear, though they may be the best tales to get landed
    in! I wonder what sort of a tale we’ve fallen into?’

  8. 7 months ago

    ‘I wonder,’ said Frodo. ‘But I don’t know. And that’s the way of
    a real tale. Take any one that you’re fond of. You may know, or
    guess, what kind of a tale it is, happy-ending or sad-ending, but the
    people in it don’t know. And you don’t want them to.’

    ‘No, sir, of course not. Beren now, he never thought he was going
    to get that Silmaril from the Iron Crown in Thangorodrim, and yet
    he did, and that was a worse place and a blacker danger than ours.
    But that’s a long tale, of course, and goes on past the happiness and
    into grief and beyond it – and the Silmaril went on and came to
    Ea¨rendil. And why, sir, I never thought of that before! We’ve got –
    you’ve got some of the light of it in that star-glass that the Lady gave
    you! Why, to think of it, we’re in the same tale still! It’s going on.
    Don’t the great tales never end?’

    ‘No, they never end as tales,’ said Frodo. ‘But the people in them
    come, and go when their part’s ended. Our part will end later – or

    ‘And then we can have some rest and some sleep,’ said Sam. He
    laughed grimly. ‘And I mean just that, Mr. Frodo. I mean plain
    ordinary rest, and sleep, and waking up to a morning’s work in the
    garden. I’m afraid that’s all I’m hoping for all the time. All the big
    important plans are not for my sort. Still, I wonder if we shall ever
    be put into songs or tales. We’re in one, of course; but I mean: put
    into words, you know, told by the fireside, or read out of a great big
    book with red and black letters, years and years afterwards. And
    people will say: ‘‘Let’s hear about Frodo and the Ring!’’ And they’ll
    say: ‘‘Yes, that’s one of my favourite stories. Frodo was very brave,
    wasn’t he, dad?’’ ‘‘Yes, my boy, the famousest of the hobbits, and
    that’s saying a lot.’’ ’

    ‘It’s saying a lot too much,’ said Frodo, and he laughed, a long
    clear laugh from his heart. Such a sound had not been heard in
    those places since Sauron came to Middle-earth. To Sam suddenly
    it seemed as if all the stones were listening and the tall rocks leaning
    over them. But Frodo did not heed them; he laughed again. ‘Why,
    Sam,’ he said, ‘to hear you somehow makes me as merry as if the
    story was already written. But you’ve left out one of the chief characters:
    Samwise the stouthearted. ‘‘I want to hear more about Sam,
    dad. Why didn’t they put in more of his talk, dad? That’s what I
    like, it makes me laugh. And Frodo wouldn’t have got far without
    Sam, would he, dad?’’ ’

  9. 7 months ago

    ‘Now, Mr. Frodo,’ said Sam, ‘you shouldn’t make fun. I was

    ‘So was I,’ said Frodo, ‘and so I am. We’re going on a bit too
    fast. You and I, Sam, are still stuck in the worst places of the story,
    and it is all too likely that some will say at this point: ‘‘Shut the book
    now, dad; we don’t want to read any more.’’ ’

    ‘Maybe,’ said Sam, ‘but I wouldn’t be one to say that. Things
    done and over and made into part of the great tales are different.
    Why, even Gollum might be good in a tale, better than he is to have
    by you, anyway. And he used to like tales himself once, by his own
    account. I wonder if he thinks he’s the hero or the villain?
    ‘Gollum!’ he called. ‘Would you like to be the hero – now where’s
    he got to again?’

    >I wonder if he thinks he’s the hero or the villain?
    >‘Gollum!’ he called. ‘Would you like to be the hero

    "‘Gollum!’ he called. ‘Would you like to be the hero – now where’s he got to again?’"

    "I wonder if he thinks he’s the hero or the villain?"


  10. 7 months ago

    Eru is based on Plato's Soul from Laws and Demiurge in Timaeus with Plotinus philosophy of evils greater good in the world's expression of beauty.
    Beauty is full of pain as music and dance is full of consonant notes and moves.
    Eru doesn't will Melkors evil he reshapes the evil's consequences into goods, that God does not permit evil its own telos. Reaching the good the long way round.

  11. 7 months ago

    I don't really see it. Catholic Odin isn't shackled to the israelite mythology like Yahweh is because Tolkien just doesn't have any of that present. Catholic Odin is exactly what a Catholic want's the head of the Gods to be, unbound by Judaism. Tolkien's cosmology is Christianity freed from Judaism, and as everyone who spends more than five seconds thinking about Christianity will find, all of the problems in Christianity come from Judaism.

    For Elves, suffering isn't really a problem because upon death they just reincarnate in literal physical heaven with a new body. After Catholic Odin calls it and ends the universe, they physically, bodily, and spiritually continue into the next life. For humans and dwarves there's an empirically verifiable afterlife filled with Gods and spirits and ancestors. The suffering and pain of this world is solely fuel for your spiritual growth and nothing more.

    The only beings that could levy any kind of criticism towards Eru Iluvatar are the other Gods that he created (namely Melkor). Unlike the malakh, however, Melkor and the other Gods have absolute free will and are fricking Gods, meaning that they can do whatever the frick they want with their existence. Melkor's job was to introduce discord and strife into the world, and he did it. The fact that he did this out of rebellion rather than goodwill to his creator is a personal failing of his, a failing that he is frankly lucky to have at all as the Ainur were some of the few beings to be able to truly change and grow (something that humans/elves/dwarves can't really do in a meaningful sense).

    • 7 months ago

      Is Melkor ever supposed to be redeemed?

      • 7 months ago

        Then Melkor can't really complain about anything, because he was just following the plan.

        Then Melkor can't really complain about anything other than his own foolishness because he was given the ability to be good and chose not to.

        • 7 months ago

          I don't know about Eru but in Abrahamic theodicy I've always found this argument to be a bit weak. God knew that Satan and the other angels would sin, that Adam and Eve would fall, etc and he still created them. It's ultimately on him

          • 7 months ago

            Right, and Tolkien solves that by just not having the problem present. Eru knew that Melkor, and all of the Ainur, could rebel if he gave them the choice. Some of them took that choice, others didn't. The responsibility is on them. With men/elves/dwarves, they just can't rebel in that way, so they can't sin to the degree that eternal punishment is warranted (with some readings even positing that Melkor himself is not subjected to eternal punishment).

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