The very idea of religion is antithetical to the freedom John seeks. He wants to love but never has the courage to do it.

The very idea of religion is antithetical to the freedom John seeks. He wants to love but never has the courage to do it. He kills himself because of his strict adherence to rules, he's more of a slave than modern man who has transcended his vices. He wants misery but can't endure it. Primitive man wants to create problems where there are none.

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  1. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    The reason I liked this book is because it's about the fall of Adam. If you've ever seen the end of evangelion you know what I'm talking about. We have to choose between the government (God) keeping us safe or venturing outside of Eden. Now outside of Eden we can potentially experience pain and death, but you can't have happiness if there's no sadness. Yes, Indian Joe could fall on the slavery of "religion" just as Adam and Eve could fall on the slavery of sin outside of Eden.

    Honestly I couldn't really understand your question. If you can expand on it

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      For example, libertarians always point out that welfare is marketed as Christian charity, but if the government forces you to give your money to the poor, they take away your agency and it's not charity at that point. Likewise the eternal need to quash dissent. In the form of home owners associations, state laws, blue laws, and over regulation. In some countries, it's illegal for restaurants to put salt in bread. That's the government trying to regulate every inkling of evil. Regulate away fat people. Regulate away vice. And keep us in a state of innocent childhood like Adam and Eve

  2. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    >The very idea of religion is antithetical to the freedom John seeks
    John doesn't seek freedom. Did you even read the book?

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      >“But I don’t want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin.”

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        Exactly, freedom is but one of many things cravings that John has rather than the prime motivation. All of a sudden, the idea of religion being antithetical to John's desires seems absurd, after all, he seeks God as well.

        • 8 months ago
          Anonymous

          So he does seek freedom?

        • 8 months ago
          Anonymous

          >“Not to mention the right to grow old and ugly and impotent; the right to have syphilis and cancer; the right to have too little to eat; the right to be lousy; the right to live in constant apprehension of what may happen tomorrow; the right to catch typhoid; the right to be tortured by unspeakable pains of every kind.”

  3. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    Let me tell you the real dystopia.
    There will be no 1984.
    There will be no Brave New World.
    There will be no Fahrenheit 457.

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      I remember you from the last thread

  4. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    That's a terrible misreading that sounds like it was conceived by a 14 year-old fedora tipper.

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      Let me guess, it’s a book about the need for God, if that’s what you believe you’ve never read it.

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        >fedora tipper admits he was filtered without knowing it
        Every time. The religious impulse is expressed throughout the dystopia. It's demonstrated in the reservation through a primitive ritual involving costumes and blood sacrifice (aside, modern readers will probably label this depiction as "problematic" if they think about it deeply enough). In the BNW, which controls all human expression as a science, it's embodied in social rituals like orgy porgy and the community sing. It's been awhile since I read it but I'm pretty sure Huxley has Lenina directly point out the parallel between the primitive ceremony she witnesses at the reservation and the lower caste's community sing. Anyway, both the reservation and the BNW are two sides of the same dystopian system--the book doesn't say how religious experience should be expressed but how it has regressed on the reservation and how it was co-opted by the BNW. So no, it's not that John is a slave to his particular religion but rather than the religious impulse exists and is shown as primitive/brutal for those that live on the reservation and sterilized/empty for those living in the BNW. The BNW also deifies Ford (substitute for lord) if you want another example.

        Let's keep going with why OP is so off base.
        >He wants to love but never has the courage to do it.
        John definitely experiences love through his relationship with his mother (which, going back to the religious themes in the book, is seen as a blasphemy). He lusts for Lenina who is incapable of expressing the transcendental aspects of being in love due to being conditioned from birth and drugged. (Note that her relationship with John is used by Huxley to show that the stability of the BNW is balanced on a knife's edge--the confusion Lenina experiences leads to the death of a few thousand people in a far flung corner of the world). So no, it's not that John is cowardly and therefore fails to attain love--in BNW love is impossible and John punishes himself for his impulse towards lust (which is how the BNW has reduced and controlled "love").
        >He kills himself because of his strict adherence to rules, he's more of a slave than modern man who has transcended his vices
        No, he kills himself because there is no individual freedom and no movement toward the sublime to be had in the reality in which he now exists. Also, the BNW doesn't represent mastering vices so much as repressing the transcendental aspects of human experience via reducing them to vice (i.e. you could say "vice as virtue" but there's no real concept of virtue in the BNW...just conformity/stability).
        >He wants misery but can't endure it. Primitive man wants to create problems where there are none.
        Banal observations that betray a shallow reading of the text.

        Anyway, I hope you grow out of your fedora tipper phase.

        • 8 months ago
          Anonymous

          >No, he kills himself because there is no individual freedom and no movement toward the sublime to be had in the reality in which he now exists. Also, the BNW doesn't represent mastering vices so much as repressing the transcendental aspects of human experience via reducing them to vice (i.e. you could say "vice as virtue" but there's no real concept of virtue in the BNW...just conformity/stability).

          So a book about God. Another dishonest Christian, what a surprise.

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            >fedora tipper admits he was filtered without knowing it (again)
            There are religious themes in BNW, I gave you explicit examples backed up by textual evidence, moron. The fact you're reading this as "you think the book is saying you need to find God" just shows how poor you are when it comes to reading while underscoring the fact you're pretty dumb.

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            Totally unravelling, lol.

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            >copes about being outed as a brainlet by attempting to derail his own thread
            Sad show, anon. You're even dumber than I thought.

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            The only person who has been outed is you. You interpreted the book exactly as I predicted. You're a slave. If you were able to read the book objectively you would realise this.

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You interpreted the book exactly as I predicted
            You completely missed how the book treats religious themes and project a simplistic idea of what constitutes such onto those that did not. This is why you're not discussing the specific references I made to the text as a means to further your argument and insisting my argument confirms some shallow read (i.e. your brain is only capable of engaging with a shallow read).

            You're an idiot, anon. You're just like the epsilons conditioned to accept their lot--you're mindless to the point you'll never have to realize your stupidity.

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            I'm bored so I'll write you a summary to see if it helps you be slightly less of an idiot:

            Regarding religious themes:
            >religious experience is examined through Huxley's depiction of ritual in Brave New World
            >in the reservation rituals are primitive and brutal whereas in the BNW they're empty and meaningless (e.g. not even "vice as virtue" because there is no virtue in BNW--just conditioning)
            >Lenina explicitly spells this parallel out to the reader (but you still missed it because you're dumb, lol)
            >also the example of Ford in place Lord (i.e. the innovator of assembly line production, continuously replicated conformity through monotony, is deified)...you can juxtapose this with the intention of the primitive ritual (a form of practical magic to bring rain) versus the assembly line (pragmatic step-by-step 'ritual' with directly evident tangible results)
            >Huxley doesn't dictate what constitutes valid religious experience but demonstrates how such is expressed and found wanting by both sides of the dystopia (the empty ritual of BNW and the superstitious practical magic of the reservation)
            Regarding your shit take about John failing to find love because of cowardice
            >John does experience love as shown by his relationship with his mother (again, you can reference the religious themes by "mother" being a term of blasphemy to citizens of BNW)
            >the object of his lust is Lenina who is conditioned from birth not to engage in romantic love (and drugs herself, like a good citizen, to avoid complex emotions that confuse her)...this leads to John trying to purge himself of the temptation she represents to him (i.e. complex reaction to lust/impossibility of any meaningful connection...again, lust is the outlet BNW uses to avoid romantic love)
            >aside, Lenina is everything a citizen of BNW should be; the humanity John confronts her with demonstrates that the BNW is precariously balanced (i.e. she ends up accidently killing a few thousand people in a far off land decades after the events of the novel)
            Regarding your misread of why he kills himself...
            >John is a romantic who has his idealizations completely destroyed by experiencing BNW
            >there is no individuality, just scientific conformity, and he is treated like the headline act of a freak show (note the horrific scene of identical epsilons communiting to work earlier in the book)
            >there is no romance, just conditioning and hedonistic outlets to vent such inclination, so John is left alone in an empty world (any hope toward experiencing the sublime he entertained, engendered within him by reading Shakespeare for example, are totally shot into the void)
            >again, for John there is no virtue or meaning in the BNW, it's entire edifice is to avoid the need for such things, and this perpetuates an existential crisis within him so he kills himself

  5. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    The only people who can't cope with the Brave New World are either stupid (John), ugly (Linda) or manlets (Bernard).

  6. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    Stop being so desperate and pathetic dude.

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      See

      >copes about being outed as a brainlet by attempting to derail his own thread
      Sad show, anon. You're even dumber than I thought.

      .

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