muslim calligraphy

is this supposed to be impressive?

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  1. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    Yes

    Compared to other scripts and their calligraphy, Arabic is very squiggly by nature so there's a lot of flexibility to what you can do.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      post most impressive muslim calligraphy

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        this script is pretty cool, it's called kufic. Look up the different scripts and take ur pick, it all depends on ur taste.

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          Cubic kufic is the best.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            What does it say?

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          that is very nice

  2. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    yes

  3. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    Ye, since nothing can hold a candle to it, tbqh.

  4. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    The frick's the point of calligraphy?
    >DUDE I SPENT 3 HOURS WRITING A SENTENCE
    ok homie I did the same in 5 seconds

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      The point is in its' beauty. You are not obliged to write a sentence, it can be random letters lumped together to form a beautiful shape like that of a bird or some object, or it can just be a formless collection of letters.

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        Cool but I can do it on a computer in a few seconds

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          Now make the sentence look like a fat woman

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            powerful negation of homosexual op
            do it in mspaint, whose style is ai proof afaik

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            fap before you post

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      Muhammad said that if you draw pictures of living things that you will go to Muslim Hell and they will come to life and torture you there, so their art has to be writing to get around this.

      I am not making this up. Read https://quranx.com/Hadith/Muslim/USC-MSA/Book-24/Hadith-5272/:

      > I am going to narrate to yor what I heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). I heard him say: All the painters who make pictures would be in the fire of Hell. The soul will be breathed in every picture prepared by him and it shall punish him in the Hell

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        1. Could have been misheard, mistransmitted, or a lie.
        2. All doesn't mean all ever, it could just mean all sinful and blashphemous painters.
        3. What do we know about Ibn Sa'id b Abl at Hasan, and was he Muslim or not, and sinful or not?
        4. Who is this Ibn 'Abbas? Was he someone with an agenda who may have invented quotes? Is his memory reliable?

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Could have been misheard, mistransmitted, or a lie
          It's not. Sahih hadiths say this over and over and over.

          https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-34/Hadith-318/ says:

          >Narrated Aisha:

          (mother of the faithful believers) I bought a cushion with pictures on it. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saw it, he kept standing at the door and did not enter the house. I noticed the sign of disgust on his face, so I said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! I repent to Allah and H is Apostle. (Please let me know) what sin I have done." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "What about this cushion?" I replied, "I bought it for you to sit and recline on." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The painters (i.e. owners) of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection. It will be said to them, 'Put life in what you have created (i.e. painted).' " The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "The angels do not enter a house where there are pictures."

          https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-7/Book-72/Hadith-834/ says
          >The people who will receive the severest punishment from Allah will be the picture makers

          https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-34/Hadith-428/ says
          >Whoever makes a picture will be punished by Allah till he puts life in it, and he will never be able to put life in it.'

          And there's a lot more where that came from.

          > All doesn't mean all ever, it could just mean all sinful and blashphemous painters
          Muhammad said it about something his own wife bought for him that happened to have pictures on it. Do you think Aisha was bringing him some diabolical scene?

          >3. What do we know about Ibn Sa'id b Abl at Hasan, and was he Muslim or not, and sinful or not?
          >4. Who is this Ibn 'Abbas? Was he someone with an agenda who may have invented quotes? Is his memory reliable?
          Everything in Sahih Muslim is, as the name of the collection suggests, graded Sahih so the answer is definitively that this is reliable.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-34/Hadith-318/ says:
            You should have quoted this then, not those randoms.

            Okay, Muhammad was a schizo, but that doesn't mean Islam's legality on picture art has to be based on his personal beliefs unrevealed from Allah, and definitely not in the Quran.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >has to be based on his personal beliefs unrevealed from Allah
            Muslims consider all of Muhammad's public teachings on religious matters and his orders on issues of ethics and morality to have divine authority.

            Hence the Taliban banning even photographs: https://www.deseret.com/1997/10/6/19338048/taliban-army-bans-photos-of-people-animals

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Muslims consider all of Muhammad's public teachings on religious matters and his orders on issues of ethics and morality to have divine authority.
            Then why do most Muslims use photos? Is AI art halal?

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            [...]

            More on AI art and art in general:
            There is some unspoken evil of image generating models. It can be trained on anything to produce anything, as long as you are good enough. Which means people use it for unspeakable things.

            AI art is so easy compared to actually drawing. It gives you the same feeling that Botticelli felt, but with just a few minutes instead of years of practice. Speaking from experience, you start to feel like Pygmalion.

            Allah tells us why he forbids drawing life, because we neglect reality in favour of illusion. It's not too ridiculous when you look at anime and how it has destroyed many young men. Allah knows best

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            I thought all prophets were equal

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            This is one case in point where some muslims, like some christians and some israelites, have taken the laws of God and added to them, subtracted from them, and followed their own passions as guidance.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >In the ḥadīth from Ibn Abī Najīh, from his father, from Ḥuwayṭab b. ʿAbd al-ʿUzzā and other than him, [it is narrated that]:

            >“when it was the day of Mecca’s conquest, the Messenger of God entered the House of God [the Kaaba] and commanded that he be given a garment. He made it wet with water and commanded that the images inside the Kaaba be wiped out but he placed his hands on the image of Jesus and his mother and said: erase everything except for what is under my hands. Al-Azraqī narrated it.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            This doesn't come from a sahih collection of hadith, it's something some rando wrote much later that nobody believes.
            There are lots of traditions about Muhammad that were distorted or fabricated, hence the need for curated and graded collections of hadith.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            what are the highest certified hadith describing muhammads physical face? are any of them sahih-certified?

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            they’re all something some “rando” wrote (zoomers need to be stuffed into ovens whilst screaming in fear fr fr) if everyone knew about it then the ummayadds wouldn’t have been the way they were, pic related, this alone proves it’s ahistorical made up jurisprudence that came way later and put into the mouth of this muhammad figure

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >they’re all something some “rando” wrote
            They're really, really not. The Bukhari and Muslim collections of hadith effectively function as scripture for Muslims. Whatever you quoted floats around on Oyish and obscure websites and seems to come from a book written about Mecca that nobody has heard about or really cares about. To Islamic eyes it is of utter, utter irrelevance since it contradicts sahih hadiths.

            We have so many lines of attestation to Muhammad saying that and similar things in the hadith that it seems very likely to be true. Even if he did spare those two images in the kaaba (and I don't think he did, if there were in fact such images) they would be a special exemption from the general rule forbidding images.

            >pic related, this alone proves it’s ahistorical
            How do you figure? Someone disobeying a religious figure by failing to carry out their orders with full zealousness isn't evidence against that religious figure giving those orders. It isn't uncommon for people to be lax when it comes to the more stringent parts of their religion. America has a pro-abortion Catholic president right now, after all.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            Shit like this is why the term Hadith will never hold the same clout as the term Quran

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            Maybe not for you random anon, but for most Muslims sahih hadith are for all practical intents and purposes Islamic scripture.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >for most Muslims sahih hadith are for all practical intents and purposes Islamic scripture.

            Yes. That's a problem, in my view. I say it's a problem because, I assume, they want to be rightly guided and not wrongly guided. I think the Hadiths are not conducive to this thing: right guidance with no wrong guidance.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "The angels do not enter a house where there are pictures."

            Archangel michael entered the house I abide in. There are pictures in the house I abide in. There were pictures in the house (the very same ones) when he entered my home.

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        Fortunately Muhammad was just a random pedophile warlord nota propher, islam is a lie, so everything you said can be safely ignored. Wew that was a close one.

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          Oh I 100% agree. The most accomplished false prophet in known history.

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        Fortunately all hadith are ahistorical nonsense made up over a century after muhammad died so they can all be ignored

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Fortunately all hadith are ahistorical nonsense made up over a century after muhammad died so they can all be ignored

          I think a hadith might so something true and worthy of using as a reference for what to do and what not to do. But that's only because it is truly correct. I don't think, at this time, that the hadiths are correct as a body of work or collection.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            can you point to something secular that is the product of a century and a half of unverifiable hearsay that you also believe? does anything comparable even exist?

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            I'm not sure I understand your intentions.

            You said "also believe". What is it that you think that I believe so that you can say "also"?

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            you understand completely you’re just ducking the question

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            The literal answer to your question is this: I don't have a single product of a century and a half of unverifiable hearsay that I believe, to say nothing of a second product of a century and a half of unverifiable hearsay that I believe.

            You asked if anything comparable even exists. My question: comparable to what?

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            comparable to the telephone game bukhari and isaq and others all fabricated, this is not the pwn you think it is, you’re feigning comprehension like a woman and thinking it’s some epic own

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >comparable to the telephone game bukhari and isaq and others all fabricated

            You're too stupid to speak to. I said a lot of words as to leave no doubt but you actually have to read what you're replying to to actually have no doubt as to the meaning.

            Some day you will be diligent and be unworthy of disdain.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            you’re just pretending to be moronic. you know very well what the criticism is, they just made shit up and said your prophet said and did and silently approved of it all. it’s unverifiable, it’s ahistorical, it’s not real, it’s a game children in kindergarten play.

            besides I can’t help but notice every time the word “hadith” is mentioned in the quran regarding that which is not the quran, it is condemnation

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            Because it means report or narrative. I'm not Muslim but you're being unfair, while he is blindly adherent to his religion.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            im not being unfair because I’m pointing out the objective absurdity of believing a telephone game transcribed two centuries after the religion allegedly came to be. what is the earliest reference to the first revelation in the cave? it’s not in the quran. what is the earliest attestation to it?

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >it means report or narrative
            So go look at it yourself and what read what it says about extra-quranic “reports or narratives”

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        Honestly electronic media should be banned, if you want to hear a message it should be within shouting distance

  5. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    looks like a clump of pubes surrounded by clumpy beard hair

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      Art is a reflection of one's thoughts and outlook. You're a dicksucker Harry.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      Cool but I can do it on a computer in a few seconds

  6. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    draw your best calligraphy in mspaint homosexual

  7. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    What do the wiener and balls at the top of the middle part mean?

  8. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    I think it is supposed to be impressive.

    Not being impressed by something one disdains isn't impressive. <- This statement is a non-sequitur

  9. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    It must be if you see it from a middle eastern perspective.
    Imagine living in desert land, where most things are colored in shades of golden and white.
    I see arabic calligraphy as a was to colorize this desertic environment, not through paint, but through words

  10. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >AI art isn't halal, unless if it is used for children's entertainment, but you're better off letting them watch actual cartoons
    why? according to which scholars fiqh? its not made by humans. its practically the same as a photograph?

    [...]

    >Do not critique hadith methodology if you have never even read at least Ibn al-Salah's introduction, Al-Tirmidhi's Kitab Al-Ilal Saghir and Kabir, or even go through a bit of Ibn Hajar's book of Rijal.
    i can say what i want, if its rationally grounded. its on muslims to provide context when applicable. but youre just a short, dysgenic brownoid, so unless you have force to back you, expect to be bulldozed every time you try to impose intellectual curiosity.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >if its rationally grounded
      rational without knowledge is frankly useless. you need to know what you're critiquing. I say this as a regular polemical writer against Christianity.

      >but youre just a short, dysgenic brownoid,
      great job outing yourself as an idiot

      >why?

      [...]
      More on AI art and art in general:
      There is some unspoken evil of image generating models. It can be trained on anything to produce anything, as long as you are good enough. Which means people use it for unspeakable things.

      AI art is so easy compared to actually drawing. It gives you the same feeling that Botticelli felt, but with just a few minutes instead of years of practice. Speaking from experience, you start to feel like Pygmalion.

      Allah tells us why he forbids drawing life, because we neglect reality in favour of illusion. It's not too ridiculous when you look at anime and how it has destroyed many young men. Allah knows best

      >its practically the same as a photograph?
      photographs are just replicated light waves, like mirrors. AI art is a computers attempt to convert noise into a cohesive picture based on training data and guidance

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        >AI art is a computers attempt to convert noise into a cohesive picture based on training data and guidance
        how is writing arabic not an attempt to convert noise into a comprehensible assembly based on information and guidance?

        >you need to know what you're critiquing
        which is what you guys come to do as a response. theres no problem as long as you do your part.

        >great job outing yourself as an idiot
        sorry brownoid im not a low iq mutt who switched his rationality off for his braindead religion.

        [...]
        More on AI art and art in general:
        There is some unspoken evil of image generating models. It can be trained on anything to produce anything, as long as you are good enough. Which means people use it for unspeakable things.

        AI art is so easy compared to actually drawing. It gives you the same feeling that Botticelli felt, but with just a few minutes instead of years of practice. Speaking from experience, you start to feel like Pygmalion.

        Allah tells us why he forbids drawing life, because we neglect reality in favour of illusion. It's not too ridiculous when you look at anime and how it has destroyed many young men. Allah knows best

        >Which means people use it for unspeakable things.
        so can arabic writing. do you know what your arabophone "muslim" brothers are writing on porn sites? neither arab nor ai art should be banned just because you barely thought either for 5 minutes and arrived with this puny response, idiot.

        >AI art is so easy compared to actually drawing. It gives you the same feeling that Botticelli felt, but with just a few minutes instead of years of practice. Speaking from experience, you start to feel like Pygmalion.
        this is a stupidity that can be fixed with proper education. doesnt mean ai should be banned off the cuff.

        >Allah tells us why he forbids drawing life, because we neglect reality in favour of illusion. It's not too ridiculous when you look at anime and how it has destroyed many young men. Allah knows best
        blahblahblah, none of those are unique to ai art or anime, and you should ask yourself why islamic countries are so shittily run by their governments and with no hopeful future they can see that young men look to anime and ai art for comfort and end up going overboard on them.

  11. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >Ibn al-Salah's introduction, Al-Tirmidhi's Kitab Al-Ilal Saghir and Kabir, or even go through a bit of Ibn Hajar's book of Rijal
    I read all that it’s all bullshit

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >it’s all bullshit
      profound insight

  12. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    your problem brownoid, is that you clearly dont think deeply about things.

    im participating in discussion in you because you at least show some promise. but please try to do better and i promise i will too.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >you clearly dont think deeply about things.
      pic related, the contents of Ibn al-Salah's (some "brownoid") introduction to hadith methodology

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        complexity doesnt guarantee depth, otherwise modern french philosophy wouldnt be bullshit.

        you willingly ignore legit critique involving potential fail points in hadith like fallibility of memory and transmission for no reason other than "because the religion would fall apart if so"

        would you do so if i posted actual contradictions in sahih hadith?

        and you still havent responded to my actual questions

  13. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    >The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Fever is from the heat of the (Hell) Fire; so abate fever with water."
    https://sunnah.com/bukhari/59/74
    is fever really from hell? because so far its been proven to have a 1:1 correlation with infectious pathogens and inflammations.

    was muhammads revelation here from allah? then allah is wrong. was muhammad wrong from himself? then he is fallible.

  14. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    >The Prophet (ﷺ) said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink) and take it out, for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."
    https://sunnah.com/bukhari/59/126
    wow what an incredible medical revelation. now i wonder why no ones ever marketed medication for illness caused by one fly wing by treating it with the other.

    a sahih hadith btw.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >was muhammads revelation here from allah? then allah is wrong. was muhammad wrong from himself? then he is fallible.
      same applies

      and if the transmission of hadith was flawed, the same potentially applies to all hadith.

  15. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    now, my noble muslim friend, i know youre not actually stupid. so years from now, dont disappoint me. find a way from your religion and continue fighting for God's goodness and justice.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >was muhammads revelation here from allah? then allah is wrong. was muhammad wrong from himself? then he is fallible.
      same applies

      and if the transmission of hadith was flawed, the same potentially applies to all hadith.

      >The Prophet (ﷺ) said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink) and take it out, for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."
      https://sunnah.com/bukhari/59/126
      wow what an incredible medical revelation. now i wonder why no ones ever marketed medication for illness caused by one fly wing by treating it with the other.

      a sahih hadith btw.

      >The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Fever is from the heat of the (Hell) Fire; so abate fever with water."
      https://sunnah.com/bukhari/59/74
      is fever really from hell? because so far its been proven to have a 1:1 correlation with infectious pathogens and inflammations.

      was muhammads revelation here from allah? then allah is wrong. was muhammad wrong from himself? then he is fallible.

      he’s not going to respond

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        im confident hes intelligent so he likely bluescreened, but i have faith he will assist the right cause without the burden of his current religion.

  16. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    i smiled when he snapped at me calling me an idiot. he has grit and smarts, now he just has to hone them for the right cause.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >i smiled when he snapped at me calling me an idiot. he has grit and smarts, now he just has to hone them for the right cause.
      pic related

  17. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >Do not claim to be a muslim, or to speak for muslims when you have no knowledge of Islam

    Okay. But quoting a hadith instead of the quran is... I've read the Quran. Is islam the religion of God, Ibn al-Qayyim or the hadiths? Feel free to use an inclusive answer if you have the audacity.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      [...]
      >Do not critique hadith methodology if you have never even read at least Ibn al-Salah's introduction, Al-Tirmidhi's Kitab Al-Ilal Saghir and Kabir, or even go through a bit of Ibn Hajar's book of Rijal.

      What if I just say this: The words are dubious and they do not say they are infallible or come from God? Is that not enough admonishment for you to talk to me respectfully?

      Islam is the religion of Allah and His Messenger, not the religion of (You) and your opinions. So we follow whatever they Allah and His Messenger says. We are certain of the Qur'an, given its mass transmission, but hadith are less certain. There are many fabricated and weak hadith, so the ahl al-hadith developed an objective way to discern truth from falsehood.

      The keyword here is "objective". Unlike textual criticsm and modern historiography, you must have an objective reason to reject a hadith, so much so that even conditions that might seem objective but are actually arbitrary, such as the concept "mutawatir", is deemed to not be a part of hadith methodology.

      we are not picking and choosing whatever we think makes sense, but we are looking at historical reports neutrally, looking for details in its chain and text that might point to it being false

      This is a much better basis for religion than any other

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        >We are certain of the Qur'an, given its mass transmission
        We can prove that the Koran was not perfectly preserved. Look at this hadith: https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4987 It says: "Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an...So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you.'...They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt."

        So the Koran was changed: people in different areas were reciting it, and writing it down differently. One of the early leaders of Islam, the Caliph Uthman, issued his official version and ordered everything else to be destroyed.

        And Muhammad's own wife Aisha herself said the final product also wasn't correct. Look at this hadith: https://quranx.com/Hadith/Muslim/USC-MSA/Book-4/Hadith-1316/. It says: "Abu Yunus, the freed slave of 'A'isha said: 'A'isha ordered me to transcribe a copy of the Qur'an for her and said: When you reach this verse: 'Guard the prayers and the middle prayer' (ii. 238), inform me; so when I reached it, I informed her and she gave me dictation (like this): Guard the prayers and the middle prayer and the afternoon prayer, and stand up truly obedient to Allah. 'A'isha said: This is how I have heard from the Messenger of Allah".

        So Muhammad’s own wife confirmed that Uthman’s standardized version was different from Muhammad’s version.

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          >So Muhammad’s own wife confirmed that Uthman’s standardized version was different from Muhammad’s version
          Umar bin Al-Khattab said: "I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting: Surat Al-Furqan, in a way that the Prophet of Allah had not taught me. I said: 'Who taught you this Surah?' He said: 'The Messenger of Allah.'

          I said: 'You are lying; the Messenger of Allah did not teach you like that. 'I took him by the hand and brought him to the Messenger of Allah and said:

          'O Messenger of Allah, you taught me Surat Al-Furqan, but I heard this man reciting it in a way that you did not teach me.'

          The Messenger of Allah said: 'Recite, O Hisham.' So he recited it as he had recited it (before). The Messenger of Allah said: 'It was revealed like this.' Then he said: 'Recite, O Umar.' So I recited it, and he said: 'It was revealed like this.'

          Then the Messenger of Allah said: 'The Quran was revealed to be recited in seven different modes.'"
          (Al-Nasa'i 936, Sahih)

          This might have been a variant reading of one of the different modes(ahruf). In any case, "middle prayer" or "'asr prayer", the meaning changes very little

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >This might have been a variant reading
            But you said "we are certain of the Qur'an". Now you're admitting you don't know what the legitimate text of that passage should be?

            It gets far worse by the way. https://sunnah.com/muslim:1050 talks about two entire lost Surahs, saying: "We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it:" If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it:" Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and" that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13)."

            https://islamqa.info/en/answers/197942/soorat-al-ahzaab-was-as-long-as-soorat-al-baqarah-then-most-of-it-was-abrogated is a strongly Muslim website agreeing with me here by the way, admitting much of an entire Surah was lost.

            Also, amusingly, Uthman himself admits at https://sunnah.com/urn/640920 that he didn't know where certain ayahs went and basically just guessed and stuck them somewhere:
            "Then the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) died, and it was not made clear to us whether it was part of it. So it is for this reason that we put them together without writing Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Rahim between them, and we put that with the seven long (Surahs)."

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >About two surahs "lost"
            It was taken to mean, by later scholars, that Allah made them forget the verses. "We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, except that we bring forth one better than it" (Al-Baqara 106). This, of course, is a miraculous event, that a whole nation forgets two whole chapters of the book they recite so often. So historians should treat it like a miracle, it is unverifiable.

            >he didn't know where certain ayahs went and basically just guessed and stuck them somewhere
            It is well known that the order of chapters of the Qur'an is not part of revelation. The Prophet only ever did categorize the Surahs based on length and content. And your wording is very disingenuous

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            Quranic variants were always known. It is your people who graps for straws, trying to prove Islam false with synonymous variants like ihn and suf, both meaning wool, and asr prayer and the middle prayer which was known to be asr.

            We are sure of the Qur'an because its message is immutable and eternal. focusing on tiny details clearly signifies desperation

            >It was taken to mean, by later scholars, that Allah made them forget the verses.
            OK so we've gone from

            [...]
            Islam is the religion of Allah and His Messenger, not the religion of (You) and your opinions. So we follow whatever they Allah and His Messenger says. We are certain of the Qur'an, given its mass transmission, but hadith are less certain. There are many fabricated and weak hadith, so the ahl al-hadith developed an objective way to discern truth from falsehood.

            The keyword here is "objective". Unlike textual criticsm and modern historiography, you must have an objective reason to reject a hadith, so much so that even conditions that might seem objective but are actually arbitrary, such as the concept "mutawatir", is deemed to not be a part of hadith methodology.

            we are not picking and choosing whatever we think makes sense, but we are looking at historical reports neutrally, looking for details in its chain and text that might point to it being false

            This is a much better basis for religion than any other

            >We are certain of the Qur'an, given its mass transmission
            to
            >

            >So Muhammad’s own wife confirmed that Uthman’s standardized version was different from Muhammad’s version


            Umar bin Al-Khattab said: "I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting: Surat Al-Furqan, in a way that the Prophet of Allah had not taught me. I said: 'Who taught you this Surah?' He said: 'The Messenger of Allah.'

            I said: 'You are lying; the Messenger of Allah did not teach you like that. 'I took him by the hand and brought him to the Messenger of Allah and said:

            'O Messenger of Allah, you taught me Surat Al-Furqan, but I heard this man reciting it in a way that you did not teach me.'

            The Messenger of Allah said: 'Recite, O Hisham.' So he recited it as he had recited it (before). The Messenger of Allah said: 'It was revealed like this.' Then he said: 'Recite, O Umar.' So I recited it, and he said: 'It was revealed like this.'

            Then the Messenger of Allah said: 'The Quran was revealed to be recited in seven different modes.'"
            (Al-Nasa'i 936, Sahih)

            This might have been a variant reading of one of the different modes(ahruf). In any case, "middle prayer" or "'asr prayer", the meaning changes very little
            >the meaning changes very little

            And now you admitting you really believe "Allah forced everybody to forget entire chapters". No one lies more about their religion than Muslims. Thank you for putting Muslim dishonesty on clear display for us all.

            >It is well known that the order of chapters of the Qur'an is not part of revelation.
            Did you even read the hadith in question? That is not about chapter order. Read it: https://sunnah.com/urn/640920

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >We are certain of the Qur'an, given its mass transmission
            This is my clarification:

            [...]
            On questioning the 'Uthmanic rasm:
            'Uthman ibn Affan wasn't just some rando, but the caliph at the time. He held authority over all muslims, and his verdicts still stand to this day, obliging us to follow and use his rasm. It is a mistake to think that 'Uthman arbitrarily compiled the Qur'an,

            'Uthman assembled a committee, consisting of the known scribes of the prophet and reciters of the Qur'an to create a critical and definitive edition of the Qur'an, without tashkeel and diacritics, with the intent that different recitations could be read compatibly with it.

            If anyone would be qualified to create such edition of the Qur'an, it would have been the caliph and the closest reciters to the Prophet.

            Creating such an edition would, inevitably, create situations where two recitations have synonymous but different words, so they must choose one, al-ihn or al-suf, and they definitely cannot choose both and create further division. It is possible that both are authentic from the prophet, but if only of the recitations were correct, it would have been the one that was choosen by the committee created by 'Uthman for that sole purpose. Allah knows best

            >That is not about chapter order.
            It is actually. Ibn Abbas is questioning Uthman, why he placed Al-Tawba right after Al-Anfal without Bismillah, making it appear as one surah. The normal justification for this is that Al-Tawba, as a decleration of war, is not befiting to begin with Bismillah. And this is attested to in the San'a Palimpsest, where before Al-Tawba, it is written "do not recite Bismillah". I am not sure about the explanation given in that hadith, and I will look up the authenticity of it

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >and I will look up the authenticity of it
            Tirmidhi 3086 is Da'if(weak) according to Al-Albani, but uses a verdict of a similar hadith with a different chain. But, according to Darussalam, authenticated by Ibn Hibban, with a final verdict of Hasan(good). Tirmidhi himself says "Hasan Sahih".

            I find nothing wrong with this hadith. It was asked, why is a short chapter placed with long chapters of the Qur'an, and he gave a justification, note the wording of 'Uthman, "so we thought that it was part of it", this wasn't some random decision, but one made by the committee with agreement

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            Quranic variants were always known. It is your people who graps for straws, trying to prove Islam false with synonymous variants like ihn and suf, both meaning wool, and asr prayer and the middle prayer which was known to be asr.

            We are sure of the Qur'an because its message is immutable and eternal. focusing on tiny details clearly signifies desperation

            On questioning the 'Uthmanic rasm:
            'Uthman ibn Affan wasn't just some rando, but the caliph at the time. He held authority over all muslims, and his verdicts still stand to this day, obliging us to follow and use his rasm. It is a mistake to think that 'Uthman arbitrarily compiled the Qur'an,

            'Uthman assembled a committee, consisting of the known scribes of the prophet and reciters of the Qur'an to create a critical and definitive edition of the Qur'an, without tashkeel and diacritics, with the intent that different recitations could be read compatibly with it.

            If anyone would be qualified to create such edition of the Qur'an, it would have been the caliph and the closest reciters to the Prophet.

            Creating such an edition would, inevitably, create situations where two recitations have synonymous but different words, so they must choose one, al-ihn or al-suf, and they definitely cannot choose both and create further division. It is possible that both are authentic from the prophet, but if only of the recitations were correct, it would have been the one that was choosen by the committee created by 'Uthman for that sole purpose. Allah knows best

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >It is possible that both are authentic from the prophet
            It seems to me that "it's possible both of these might be authentic" is very different from "we are certain about the text".

            >with the intent that different recitations could be read compatibly with it
            Do you have a source that says this, or is it something you're guessing?

            >so they must choose one, al-ihn or al-suf, and they definitely cannot choose both and create further division
            So a group of men decided what you would take to be God's word, and what you wouldn't read there instead? Again that sounds very different than being "certain" about the text.

            And again this goes way beyond minor synonymous variants. There's an entire Surah and most of another one missing. Perhaps the most amusing example is at https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1944 where Aisha says "The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it."

            >why he placed Al-Tawba right after Al-Anfal without Bismillah, making it appear as one surah. The normal justification for this is that Al-Tawba, as a decleration of war, is not befiting to begin with Bismillah
            In other words, men decided whether to put that in the Koran or to exclude it from the Koran?

            After all, that hadith says "we thought that it was part of it. Then the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) died, and it was not made clear to us whether it was part of it. So it is for this reason that we put them together without writing Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Rahim between them".

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Do you have a source that says this
            I don't know, maybe the very fact that the qiraat were allowed to exist at all?

            >sounds very different than being "certain" about the text.
            definitely more certain than any other religious text.

            >a tame sheep came in and ate it.
            the hadith is weak and it is not conceivable that a whole verse disappears from the memory of thousands just because one scrap of paper was missing, unless you take this as some miracle

            >men decided whether to put that in the Koran or to exclude it from the Koran?
            Muhammad is a man yes. The omission of "bismillah" comes from the Prophet, which is, like I said, attested to in the San'a Palimpsest, which must have come independently from the Prophet instead of through 'Uthman

            Even if we were to concede all these, I don't see how any of this proves Islam to be false

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >maybe the very fact that the qiraat were allowed to exist at all?
            In other words, no, you have no source and you're trying to pass off your guess as a fact and hope no one calls you on it. What was he going to do, erase them from everybody's minds?

            >definitely more certain than any other religious text
            I actually don't think so. We have entire chapters missing and mostly missing, central authority destroying variants, even part of it being eaten by an animal and lost forever. I don't think I've heard of a religious text with worse preservation, frankly.

            >the hadith is weak
            No it isn't, it's graded hasan.

            >it is not conceivable that a whole verse disappears from the memory of thousands
            A) You yourself have admitted here that an entire Surah was forgotten.
            B)Thousands of people were not memorizing the Koran at this time. That's a fanciful fairytale. https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4988
            says that "A verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuza`ima bin Thabit Al-Ansari". Clearly it would not have been missed during Uthman's compilation and clearly a search like that wouldn't have been necessary if thousands of people in all Muslim areas had the entire thing memorized.

            >which must have come independently from the Prophet
            Is this something you have evidence for, or something you are guessing? It directly contracts that Hadith where Uthman states that Muhammad hasn't made it clear.

            >Even if we were to concede all these, I don't see how any of this proves Islam to be false
            What it proves false is the earlier claim about us being certain about the text. We cannot be certain about a text if we are missing two entire Surahs, one of which was apparently very long.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            Explain to me how writing a sentence in the shape of a lion is completely different than drawing a lion

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >y-yes there are several versions of the perfect book written by the infallible CRE-A-TOR OF THE UNIVERSE, but i-it's only because one perfect book wasn't enough o-okay? We needed a handful of them with minor differences, because ... ugh ... we just LE DID!

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            For those unaware, there are two types of variant recitations of the Qur'an.

            1. Variants which fit the 'Uthmanic rasm, known as qiraat. Example: malik vs maalik (Al-Fatiha 4) and walada vs wulda (Maryam 77). These variants are minor and are accepted, they can be explained as differences in dialects and are part of the seven ahruf.

            2. Variants which don't fit the 'Uthmanic rasm. Mostly these are rejected due to them being burned by the caliph. Still, muslims recorded these variants. An example of this is "al-'ihn" in Al-Qari'ah 5. Ibn Mas'ud's copy of the Qur'an rendered it as "al-suf". Of course, both mean wool. You will notice that these variations are mostly synonymous.

            In any interpretation, the core meaning of the Qur'an does not change, even with the San'a Palimpsest. I recommend this video which I used for reference by the great Dr Ali Ataie: https://youtu.be/ancam0X4Bf0?si=xDzuUZ8XqF0sLBG0

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            I love how quickly Muslims go from their taqiyya of "the Noble Quran is the best preserved book in history, that is how we know it can be only from ALLAH" to "w-well the meaning is the same" when they encounter someone who has actually read their texts and can call them on their lies.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            Quranic variants were always known. It is your people who graps for straws, trying to prove Islam false with synonymous variants like ihn and suf, both meaning wool, and asr prayer and the middle prayer which was known to be asr.

            We are sure of the Qur'an because its message is immutable and eternal. focusing on tiny details clearly signifies desperation

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            You are workshipping a frankenfaith that was originally a millenarist israeli subsect means to unite israelites and ismailites (arabs) and only take back Jerusalem.
            Then the successor of your pedo warlord very liked the lands outside the Holy Land they conquered. So they made up a lot of fake sources to stabilize and universalize their millenaristic israeli heresy so that their non-semitic subjects could be converted and turned docile too.
            This is clearly the most rational outcome.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            nothing in your post was indicative of a rational mind. this is like how an unlearned redditor thinks religion is created

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >"A rational explanation of why a cult develop into a universalitic religion with permanent control of society by adding more books with pratical rules in their holy canon to integrate their original mystic and so unpratical holy text?"
            >"Nah bro. Its all part of the keikaku of the supreme all knowing perfect God that decided a two century written collection of chinese whispers was the best way to inform his subjects of his rules."

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        >The keyword here is "objective". Unlike textual criticsm and modern historiography, you must have an objective reason to reject a hadith, so much so that even conditions that might seem objective but are actually arbitrary, such as the concept "mutawatir", is deemed to not be a part of hadith methodology.

        How the frick is it objective?
        All the factors involved in accepting or rejecting hadith can be boiled down to basically street cred.

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          >All the factors involved in accepting or rejecting hadith can be boiled down to basically street cred

          >you clearly dont think deeply about things.
          pic related, the contents of Ibn al-Salah's (some "brownoid") introduction to hadith methodology

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Islam is the religion of Allah and His Messenger, not the religion of (You) and your opinions.

        Perhaps

        >So we follow whatever they Allah and His Messenger says.

        Okay

        >We are certain of the Qur'an, given its mass transmission,

        If the Qur'an is the message of God, it is good to be certain in it.

        >but hadith are less certain.

        I'm tracking

        >There are many fabricated and weak hadith

        I do not, at this time, doubt that that is the case.

        It is best to be good and charitable in all one's ways.

  18. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    [...]

    >Do not critique hadith methodology if you have never even read at least Ibn al-Salah's introduction, Al-Tirmidhi's Kitab Al-Ilal Saghir and Kabir, or even go through a bit of Ibn Hajar's book of Rijal.

    What if I just say this: The words are dubious and they do not say they are infallible or come from God? Is that not enough admonishment for you to talk to me respectfully?

  19. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    I don't know about you, but I find it impressive, very nice.

  20. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    as a non-muslim i see the claims that there is a single unchanged codified quran consistent. there may have been other editions, but with the obvious theological flaws they have, they should be regarded as heretical offshoots.

    regarding the different manuscripts, whichever ones were made authoritative, and were consistent with the main body in diction, rhyme, and other poetical effects, are the authoritative version of the quran. so far ive only seen manuscripts with synonyms, but these can probably be solved with attention to rhyme and length, so that the correct version fits the poetic style of the rest of the quran. and either way, synonyms are minor and dont break the quran, like some idiot schizos zealously want to believe is true.

  21. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    as a muslim i see the claims that there is a single unchanged codified quran inconsistent. there have been other editions, and all have the same the obvious theological flaws, so they all should be regarded as false.

    regarding the different manuscripts, six were made authoritative, and were consistent with the main body in diction, rhyme, and other poetical effects, so the authoritative version of the quran could be either of them - which makes no sense. so far ive only seen manuscripts with synonyms, unfortunately these can't be solved with attention to rhyme and length, because the Quran doesn't have a consistent rhyme scheme so that all versions fit the poetic style of the rest of the quran. and either way, synonyms might be minor but we're speaking about the God Almighty, like Muslims zealously want to believe is true.

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