How to Catholics respond to JW criticism of the Trinity?

Not long after the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ died, heated debates began to center around the nature and relationship of the Father, Son and holy spirit. Efforts to settle such questions led to a series of “creeds,” or statements of belief, that eventually resulted in Christendom’s doctrine of the Trinity. Do you believe in the Trinity? Perhaps you have always thought of it as based upon the Bible. But do you know exactly what that doctrine teaches? The “Athanasian Creed” puts it this way:

“We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. . . . The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. . . . So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet there are not three almightys, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God. . . . And in this Trinity none is afore or after other; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal together, and coequal.”

But what about the scriptures that portray Jesus as subordinate to God? The above-quoted “creed” took care of those by declaring Jesus to be both “perfect God” and “perfect man” at the same time. We read: “For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. . . . Perfect God and perfect man . . . Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching his manhood. Who, although he be God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ.”

Is that what you believe about God and Jesus Christ? Perhaps you ask: How could Jesus Christ be the “Son” of God if he had existed as long as his Father? How could Jesus be both human and divine, both “coequal” with and “inferior” to God at the same time? If “the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty,” can there truly be only “one almighty”?

Did you know that the inspired Scriptures never mention the word “trinity”? Nor do they state anywhere that Jesus is coequal and coeternal with God. Where, then, did such an idea originate?
- How Christendom borrows from Plato, Awake Aug. 22, 1976

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  1. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    and also the admixture of Greek philosophy.

  2. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    bumg

  3. 8 months ago
    Khata

    > How could Jesus be both human and divine, both “coequal” with and “inferior” to God at the same time?
    It seems like he's confusing Christ's two natures, that of the Son of the Godhead and His Human Nature. If you don't already know, humans are of course inferior to God, unlike God, humans are created, and so Christ Human Nature is inferior to the Divine Nature. It is the hypostatic union.
    >Did you know that the inspired Scriptures never mention the word “trinity”?
    Well duh, it was Tertullian who was the first one to describe the Christian God as the 'Triune God', anyone who studies the theology of the Trinity would know that baka.

  4. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Not long after the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ died, heated debates began to center around the nature and relationship of the Father, Son and holy spirit. Efforts to settle such questions led to a series of “creeds,” or statements of belief, that eventually resulted in Christendom’s doctrine of the Trinity. Do you believe in the Trinity? Perhaps you have always thought of it as based upon the Bible. But do you know exactly what that doctrine teaches? The “Athanasian Creed” puts it this way:
    Its based on both the Bible and Holy Tradition, this would be a half decent argument against american protestants only.
    >But what about the scriptures that portray Jesus as subordinate to God?
    such as?
    >inferior to the Father as touching his manhood
    >Is that what you believe about God and Jesus Christ?
    Is the conclusion of this that because Christ is "inferior to the Father as touching his manhood" therefore he is some sort of demigod or normal man? Because just earlier the same creed called him a perfect God and perfect man.
    However taken as a whole it calls Christ both God and Man and distinguishes the trinity. saying inferior to the Father as touching his manhood is just an example of Christ not being the Father but still God.
    >How could Jesus Christ be the “Son” of God if he had existed as long as his Father?
    The same way God is eternally the creator and thus eternally creating.
    If God is all powerful then he has the power to make a reality in which he is eternally the Father.
    >How could Jesus be both human and divine “inferior” to God at the same time?
    by nature of being an all powerful God, which making oneself both human and divine would be possible if God was all powerful.
    inferior sounds like it refers to the limitation of the son as he willingly takes on human limitations.
    >If “the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty,” can there truly be only “one almighty”?
    If “the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty,” then it sounds like the trinity is the one all mighty.
    >Did you know that the inspired Scriptures never mention the word “trinity”? Nor do they state anywhere that Jesus is coequal and coeternal with God. Where, then, did such an idea originate?

    so? we're not bible onlyists

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      >we're not bible onlyists
      that's what JWs do not seem to understand. I don't understand how they do not see this.

  5. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    JWs are correct that Jesus Christ is not G-d. Where they are confused is that the doctrine of the Trinity came about because Jesus practiced heresy and led his followers to idolatry. JWs claim to be against magic but Jesus was a sorcerer who deceived the people, turning water into wine, and blaspheming by claiming to be Lord of the Sabbath and before Abraham, he was.

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      Are you a ~~*them*~~?

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        Censorship of the word “god” should give that away

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      The trinity is largely present in the old testament. I don’t even believe in a very literal interpretation of the Bible and an aware it was written over millenia and edited a thousand and one times, but the trinity is present, as Father (El), Mother (Asherah, the wife and spirit of El, whose name means wisdom), and the kindly Son (Yahweh).

      I think the gnostics explained some of it correctly, though I’m skeptical of some of their beliefs, with the Holy Spirit emanating from El, as his first thought, about himself.

      The Father looked into Barbelo
      [into the pure light surrounding the Invisible Spirit]

      Barbelo conceived and bore a spark of light
      Who had blessedness similar to, but not equal to, her blessedness,

      Who was the only child of that mother–father
      The only offspring,
      The only begotten child of the pure light, the Father.

      This is the dogma of the same scam which claims the oral Torah goes back to Moses, a claim which the temple priests, well before Jesus lived, knew was utter horseshit.

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        >The trinity is largely present in the old testament
        >*trinity isn't present at all*
        wdhmbt

        • 8 months ago
          Anonymous

          It's a stupid made up shit from jay dyer the moron.

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            glad jay dyer makes you seethe

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            Kek gay dyer himself seethes at everything that he doesn't agree with, the fanatic thomist debate is still the most hilarious, imagine making a two hours of analytical rant on a twenty minutes debate that he himself ended (he audaciously claimed victory as well)

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            .t fanatic thomist mad he lost a debate against jay dyer

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            >it's le arbitrary
            >it's le arbitrary
            >this is BS
            this was how dyer responded btw, no rebuttal at all, absolutely pathetic. if you consider this a "victory" then this just confirms what we already knew all along, that dyer is a moron and his teenage followers are mindless drones.

          • 8 months ago
            Anonymous

            sorry but your fallacious retorts just don't hold up in debate, you need to provide an argument or get mocked

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        >This is the dogma of the same scam which claims the oral Torah goes back to Moses, a claim which the temple priests, well before Jesus lived, knew was utter horseshit.
        genetic fallacy

    • 8 months ago
      Cult of Passion

      >Jesus was a sorcerer who deceived the people
      >Moses making water form form a stone.
      Mashallah, these miracles!

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        No there just happened to be water there

  6. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    >Is that what you believe about God and Jesus Christ? Perhaps you ask: How could Jesus Christ be the “Son” of God if he had existed as long as his Father? How could Jesus be both human and divine, both “coequal” with and “inferior” to God at the same time? If “the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty,” can there truly be only “one almighty”?
    To the contrary, God cannot exist AS a single and unified entity. A divided nature of some sort is necessary for the existence of an ultimate One. Though that sounds contradictory, you must consider that if God is to have always been and is an indivisible existence, then God therefore is incapable of acting upon himself to execute change (i.e., Creation). God must simultaneously be the origin of all ideals and the origin of all motion, to both "be" and "do".

    This of course lends itself well to the interpretation of God having created Adam in his image. A man is not a monolithic entity. Are you your physical form, your thoughts, or your actions? Does having flesh prohibit you from thinking or doing? Jesus is the expression of the ideal of God.

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      >God cannot
      I don't think you get to decide the rules of divinity mortal man.

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        If God is perfect then he is not a contradiction.

  7. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    JW teachings are irrefutable.

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      What about the angel Moroni and the magic under garments ?

      https://i.imgur.com/ipqxVQh.jpg

      Not long after the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ died, heated debates began to center around the nature and relationship of the Father, Son and holy spirit. Efforts to settle such questions led to a series of “creeds,” or statements of belief, that eventually resulted in Christendom’s doctrine of the Trinity. Do you believe in the Trinity? Perhaps you have always thought of it as based upon the Bible. But do you know exactly what that doctrine teaches? The “Athanasian Creed” puts it this way:

      “We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. . . . The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. . . . So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet there are not three almightys, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God. . . . And in this Trinity none is afore or after other; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal together, and coequal.”

      But what about the scriptures that portray Jesus as subordinate to God? The above-quoted “creed” took care of those by declaring Jesus to be both “perfect God” and “perfect man” at the same time. We read: “For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. . . . Perfect God and perfect man . . . Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching his manhood. Who, although he be God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ.”

      Is that what you believe about God and Jesus Christ? Perhaps you ask: How could Jesus Christ be the “Son” of God if he had existed as long as his Father? How could Jesus be both human and divine, both “coequal” with and “inferior” to God at the same time? If “the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty,” can there truly be only “one almighty”?

      Did you know that the inspired Scriptures never mention the word “trinity”? Nor do they state anywhere that Jesus is coequal and coeternal with God. Where, then, did such an idea originate?
      - How Christendom borrows from Plato, Awake Aug. 22, 1976

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        Who cares about Mormonism?

  8. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    tl;dr
    Its a mystery

  9. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    Speaking as someone who was raised in the JW cult i feel the need to warn people about it. If you're some vulnerable person reading this thinking that maybe the JW's have some valid points STOP!
    They are a cult, they destroy families, they cover up sexual abuse of children. Once they've got their hooks in you it will cost you dearly to leave.
    They are not just another Christian denomination, they are a batshit crazy, high control cult.
    Avoid them like the plague.

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      They can be reformed. The infrastructure is there. The people are there. The inclination towards truth is there. We just need to help them overcome their prejudices against philosophy and their intantile literalism.

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        I doubt that very much but even if you're right do they actually want to reform? The people at the top are corrupt and power mad, the rank and file membership are stupid and brainwashed. Also they are losing member at an unsustainable rate so the question of reform might be merely academic, they won't exist in 30 years at current loss rates.

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        >The infrastructure is there. The people are there.
        They literally just this week decided that the average JW no longer has to autistically keep track of the number of hours they spend "proselytizing" (i.e. bothering people door-to-door and on street corners). They're in the early stages of a piecemeal attempt at softening up because too many people are leaving them.
        >https://apnews.com/article/jehovahs-witnesses-proselytizing-policy-change-2d1320da659a8a3dae4b136b55882e19

    • 8 months ago
      Khata

      It should also be mentioned that JWs are not Christian at all since they deny Jesus to be the Christ God almighty.
      The JW cult is Arian heresy, pic related.

  10. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    The trinity is the biggest load of bullshit ever concoted by anyone ever and mankind will probably not survive it, because the modern Christians think doubt is demonic and no longer practice thought, but swallow an authoritarian worldview whole and kiss cops and soldiers and nuclear bombs with their American Jesus worshipping lips.

    that fricking doctrine will be the death of mankind

    • 8 months ago
      Anonymous

      if it makes atheist edgelords seethe then it must be worth something

      • 8 months ago
        Anonymous

        If only you knew. If only. I have probably read two or three thousand pages on early Christianity and I still didn't figure out until very far along in that reading.

        I practiced fairly devoutly and seriously for 3 years before the cracks showed.

        I picked and picked and dammit if the whole god damned thing didn't fall plumb down.

        Harold Blooms spells it out pretty clearly in "Jesus and Yahweh" but if you would familiarize yourself with a large portion of the Qumran and Nag Hammadi scrolls and keep going back to your Bible you should start to figure it out.

        Paul absolutely hijacked whatever Jesus started.

        • 8 months ago
          Anonymous

          Funny, St.Paul didn't even believe in a trinitarian god

        • 8 months ago
          Anonymous

          you're free to make an argument but you getting mad when your mom makes you go to church is irrelevant

        • 8 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Atheists try not to reddit space challenge (impossible)
          More seriously being anti-Paul is a huge sign of a midwit for two reasons. Paul's epistles are literally older than the Gospels, they are the oldest Christian texts, period, so trying to read the story "chronologically" because that's how the Bible orders it for convenience, and seeing Paul added in "after," doesn't fit with the objective nature of the texts and the zeitgeist in which they were created. Secondly, Acts of the Apostles talks about Paul in-depth, and since Luke and Acts were written by the same author the Gospels themselves (or at least the synoptics) are definitively pro-Paul.

  11. 8 months ago
    Anonymous

    We don't. It's not worth wasting our time against a cult that numbers under ten million, with hundreds of allegations of every crime under the sun which has arisen since your incorporation under Charles Taze Russell (may I spit upon his grave)

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