How do atheists reconcile morality with an indifferent universe?

How do atheists reconcile morality with an indifferent universe? Why should humans care about suffering when the universe does not care at all? Isn't human existence itself completely irrelevant compared to the vastness of the universe? Good, evil, suffering, and morality seem like trivial concepts when considering that they will be entirely erased in the passage of time, culminating with the heat death of the universe, after which there will be no life, no justice, no reward. Isn't it all just meaningless?

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  1. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    Feelings. The only relationship secular people have with morality is empathy. Which to them is the alpha and omega of morality and it really shows.
    >inb4 butthurt atheists strawman the frick out of me
    Empathy isn't bad. It's a valid component of morality. But it's nowhere near the axis of it.

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      That's the notion that I get as well. The problem with that is my feelings can differ from your feelings. Surely my own feelings would trump the feelings of others? There are also people who are incapable of empathy, or people who wish to do harm to others for their own enjoyment.

  2. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    >How do atheists reconcile morality with an indifferent universe?
    Because we're a part of the universe and we are not indifferent
    >Why should humans care about suffering when the universe does not care at all?
    The universe doesn't care or not care, it has no capacity to care at all (other than the humans a part of it)
    >Isn't human existence itself completely irrelevant compared to the vastness of the universe?
    Relevance is a human invention, we're relevant if we say we are.
    >Good, evil, suffering, and morality seem like trivial concepts when considering that they will be entirely erased in the passage of time, culminating with the heat death of the universe, after which there will be no life, no justice, no reward
    No, that doesn't follow
    >Isn't it all just meaningless?
    No

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      >The universe doesn't care or not care
      This made me lol. If the universe can't care, then it doesn't care. How could it not not care?

      >Relevance is a human invention, we're relevant if we say we are.
      In that case, you're only relevant to yourself.

      • 5 months ago
        Anonymous

        > If the universe can't care, then it doesn't care.
        It has no capacity for caring. And what humans mean when we say talk about people who “don’t care” is really “malign indifference.” The people who don’t care who hurt us by not caring know they are supposed to help us or show some compassion when they see us in pain or suffering. We know they are supposed to express empathy at the bare minimum and lend aid when it’s possible, especially when it can be done quickly in a way that’s not a major detriment.

        We’re not really talking about not caring, we are really talking about malign neglect. A father who abandons his kids emotionally and refuses to spend any amount of time with them while still paying support or providing them with a home to live in is not someone who doesn’t care, it is a case of malign neglect. He knows he’s supposed to care, the kids know he’s supposed to care, society knows he’s supposed to care but at the end of the day he doesn’t. We can make it a little stark if you like, if you encounter an 8 year old child wandering alone while sightseeing in the desert, you have a responsibility to bring them back to civilization where they won’t die of dehydration and lack of food, exposure etc.

        You may not be responsible in the sense that you brought them into the desert and left them there but saying “not my problem” and getting in the car, not calling 9/11 etc. is an example of malign neglect.

        The universe lacks the capacity for malign neglect. Attributing malign neglect onto the universe by saying “it doesn’t care” is attributing intent (and therefore judgement) that we typically reserve for humans. It’s anthromorphization

        • 5 months ago
          Anonymous

          >It has no capacity for caring.
          And yet it provides us with everything we need.

          >A father who abandons his kids
          Never happened. He's patiently waiting.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >And yet it provides us with everything we need.
            We inhabit a very small part of the universe where the conditions are right for our existence. You either can take a religious perspective and say the existence of the exceptionally tiny rocky that we call earth is a miracle or you can say
            >okay, it’s not probably not made just for us, we see that the vast, vast overwhelming majority of the universe is hostile to our survival. And that’s true even if the space in our solar system

            We don’t furnish our existence just because we were poorer into a magical place like the garden of Eden, where everything is done for us — we have to work for it

            Even this very small place that we call home is indifferent to our concerns. We either work to ensure our survival and prosperity or we die.

            > He's patiently waiting.
            For what? The gas station to restock his favorite pack of smokes

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            *born into

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >We inhabit a very small part of the universe where the conditions are right for our existence.
            Just like this thought comes from the relativey tiny part of your body capable of assessing concepts. Size is no argument.
            >we have to work for it
            And?
            >Even this very small place that we call home is indifferent to our concerns
            And yet it provides us with everything we need.
            >> He's patiently waiting.
            >For what?
            For you to come back.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You either can take a religious perspective and say the existence of the exceptionally tiny rocky that we call earth is a miracle or you can say
            I don't think you understand what a miracle is. God created the entire universe, not just planet Earth.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Where else would could we possibly find things we need than in the universe? dumbass

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Nowhere. Things we need don't have to exist whatsoever. And yet they do abundantly.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Do you think it would be possible for humans to exist, if the things we need didn't exist?

  3. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    Atheists are some of the most self-obsessed people you’ll meet, so they’ll project their subjective beliefs onto everyone else (including inanimate objects like the universe as a whole) and call that objective morality. Ultimately it boils down to hedonism or a fear of accountability/judgment. I used to think free will necessarily meant the freedom to do good things, but atheists prefer the freedom to not do anything really, and just slave out for their bodily impulses

  4. 5 months ago
    Radiochan

    We live here, amongst humans. The universe is out there.

  5. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    Why should humans care about suffering just because Jesus cares?

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      The Christian belief is that God created the universe out of His love, and that everything He created was good. Humans are commanded to live moral lives and treat humans with dignity since they are made in the image and likeness of God. The universe is not an indifferent entity in Christianity.

      • 5 months ago
        Anonymous

        ok
        Why should I care?

        • 5 months ago
          Anonymous

          If you don't care, then don't ask the question. I was giving an explanation because someone asked how it was different from the Christian worldview.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            I don't mean to say I wasn't interested.

            OP is asking why humans should care if no God
            I'm asking why humans should care if God

            It's not like a God existing that cares about the universe, will change it so humans cares. At least, I don't understands how or why
            I can grant everything you said, without caring myself, right?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            God commands humans to act in a specific way. That is why they have a moral obligation to do so. What moral obligation do atheists have?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Do you not have a conscience? No empathy?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            I do have a conscience and empathy, but that doesn't give me a moral obligation to act morally, my belief in God does.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >but that doesn't give me a moral obligation to act morally,
            why not?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Why would it? Do murderers not have empathy? You're making the argument that morality is just empathy, which 99% of every human being has. What happens if you do something immoral? It just makes you feel bad?

            If you actually did have those things, you would be driven to be moral. From my perspective, this is like you asking me why I like cooked food instead of eating just crackers and vitamins for the rest of my life. You’re asking me what makes me obligated to like steak or seasoned chicken breast with some cooked veggies and rice. I’m compelled to, because I want to, it’s as natural as breathing.
            If that’s not how you feel about being a good man, then you are not a good man.

            Again, I'm not asking why you have a preference for moral behavior over immoral behavior, I'm asking for a justification for moral obligation. If right and wrong is decided by how you feel or what makes you feel good, who is to say that pornography isn't moral? Who is to say that drunkenness is immoral? How does your feelings obligate me to act a certain way?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Do murderers not have empathy?
            Well, a lot of them don't, some of them just make bad decisions in life and end up in bad situations.
            > What happens if you do something immoral? It just makes you feel bad?
            Well lets take murder as an example, assuming we live in a world with no legal consequences, murdering someone effectively makes you a target for being murdered yourself, so the implication here is that morals have some logical framewrok beyond law or religion. you don't need God to tell you why killing someone is bad, you just don't.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >murdering someone effectively makes you a target for being murdered yourself
            How does that follow? If you don't murder anyone, you can't be a victim of murder?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            You still can, but not a victim of justified murder. People who go out of their way to murder innocent people are usually mentally ill.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            How do you determine whether a murder is "justified"?

            >I'm asking for a justification for moral obligation
            You’re not getting it anon. I couldn’t have been more clear. I am compelled to act morally because I want to, this is extremely normal.
            Be honest, have you ever been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder? Do you have trouble relating with others?

            >I am compelled to act morally because I want to
            Ok. That's good for you, but what about everyone else? Am I compelled to act morally because you want me to? What if I don't want to act morally?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            I hope you understand that threads are made all over the internet, and pretty much only on Oyish are their threads like this where guys say they have no morality and ask why they shouldn’t be pieces of shit.
            You’re fringe and have serious social and emotional problems.
            You are far from normal.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            I'm sorry you don't understand the difference between being moral and asking for a justification for morality. By the way, what is your standard for moral behavior, other than what makes you feel good?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            My standard is whatever makes God feel good

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            I can't tell if you're being ironic or not.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            You’re so removed from being normal that you’re still asking things like “why should you act moral” when I told you that this is normal for people to want to act morally.
            So asking people why they should do something they deeply want to do.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            So morality is just whatever is "normal"? If it's normal to kill babies or own other humans as slaves, you would be fine with that?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            I said it’s normal for people to want to act moral. What IS moral is dependent on many factors, there is some universality but culture and individual variance.
            When an individual or groups make arguments that can sway others into showing that some given things we do are immoral according to our principles, then society begins to change their moral rules.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Why should I care about what's "normal"? It's also normal for people to kill each other and fight.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            That’s weird I’ve been alive since the early 90’s and I’ve never seen anyone kill another, and I can count the physical fights I’ve seen on two hands.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            We’re talking about normal because you don’t seem to realize moral behavior, conscience and empathy are normal.
            Meaning that you having no conscience or empathy isn’t a big problem, you’re strange and have problems. People will keep you in line, you’re outnumbered by a long shot

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            And let’s be clear bro, that’s what you’re doing too. That’s what everyone does.
            I’m not saying how things should be, I’m describing how they are

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I’m not saying how things should be, I’m describing how they are
            Exactly. I'm asking about the way things should be. What relevance is there in describing the way things are? You can't derive an "ought" from an "is".

            That’s weird I’ve been alive since the early 90’s and I’ve never seen anyone kill another, and I can count the physical fights I’ve seen on two hands.

            >I’ve never seen anyone kill another
            You've never watched a war documentary? You've never watched the news? You've never played a video game? You're either extremely sheltered or lying.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You've never watched a war documentary? You've never watched the news? You've never played a video game?
            If you don’t see something in person for your whole life, good chance it’s not normal. Also did you act like video games are real life? Lmao

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            You're trying to pass off denying that crime exists as "normal" right now.

            We’re talking about normal because you don’t seem to realize moral behavior, conscience and empathy are normal.
            Meaning that you having no conscience or empathy isn’t a big problem, you’re strange and have problems. People will keep you in line, you’re outnumbered by a long shot

            So if it was "normal" in a society to sacrifice babies or own slaves, you would just accept that as moral behavior? It's also "normal" to be religious. So when are you getting baptized?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You're trying to pass off denying that crime exists as "normal" right now
            Normal as in people who think it’s not okay vastly outnumber people who do, murderers are a very small minority, fights are not seen as okay by most people unless it’s in the context of an agreed consensual tournament with rules, or in self defense.

            >So if it was "normal" in a society to sacrifice babies or own slaves, you would just accept that as moral behavior
            Nope, I didn’t say something being normal makes it moral, I said it’s normal to have a conscience and empathy, it’s normal to have a moral compass. As in your post back here

            How do you determine whether a murder is "justified"?

            [...]
            >I am compelled to act morally because I want to
            Ok. That's good for you, but what about everyone else? Am I compelled to act morally because you want me to? What if I don't want to act morally?

            is refuted by the fact that we don’t have to worry about most people not having a moral compass, because they do.
            You’re really just not following a pretty straightforward conversation. Beginning to think you’re just lonely and playing dumb so I keep talking to you

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I didn’t say something being normal makes it moral

            >We’re talking about normal because you don’t seem to realize moral behavior, conscience and empathy are normal.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Having morality is normal, WHAT is moral is not determined by norms alone. There is no one right answer, people disagree on morality all the time.
            This is not hard to follow.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I'm asking for a justification for moral obligation
            You’re not getting it anon. I couldn’t have been more clear. I am compelled to act morally because I want to, this is extremely normal.
            Be honest, have you ever been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder? Do you have trouble relating with others?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            If you actually did have those things, you would be driven to be moral. From my perspective, this is like you asking me why I like cooked food instead of eating just crackers and vitamins for the rest of my life. You’re asking me what makes me obligated to like steak or seasoned chicken breast with some cooked veggies and rice. I’m compelled to, because I want to, it’s as natural as breathing.
            If that’s not how you feel about being a good man, then you are not a good man.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >From my perspective, this is like you asking me why I like cooked food instead of eating just crackers and vitamins for the rest of my life. You’re asking me what makes me obligated to like steak or seasoned chicken breast with some cooked veggies and rice. I’m compelled to, because I want to, it’s as natural as breathing.
            His logic is going to be that God made still ultimately compelled you to like cooked food...because some israelite 2 thousand years ago scribbled something down on a piece of papyrus

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Why I should care about God's command?
            Because of my subjective preference to not be tortured forever, something like that?

  6. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's better to be kind to people, even if they are not kind back to you. It feels better, and contributes to a general feeling of well-being in the world.
    I personally believe that humans will never even leave the Solar System, so the universe will go on for a long time after all humans are dead.
    But while we are alive, it's nicer if as many of us as possible are all kind to one another.

  7. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    Because its expedient, dumbass.

  8. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    I don’t know about you but I want to be moral regardless of the universe not caring whether I live or die

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      My question is why? Why should you want to be moral? I'm not asking if you want to be moral, I'm asking why you ought to be moral.

      • 5 months ago
        Anonymous

        Because I want to be. Problem? If the only reason you aren't a violent savage out raping and pillaging is because you fear Jesus spanking you then I wouldn't want to be around you.

        • 5 months ago
          Anonymous

          >My feels are what keeps me at bay
          >Wouldn't wanna be around people with actual values

      • 5 months ago
        Anonymous

        My working conscience and social emotions, my life experiences that have built empathy for those who suffer

      • 5 months ago
        Anonymous

        My brain works correctly so I want to do what’s right, I’m compelled to do so by a deep and powerful instinct and pro-social emotions.
        If you don’t have that, that’s your problem.

        • 5 months ago
          Anonymous

          >My brain works correctly so I want to do what’s right
          So does mine. I also have a sense of religiosity, along with most normal people. Why don't you?

          Having morality is normal, WHAT is moral is not determined by norms alone. There is no one right answer, people disagree on morality all the time.
          This is not hard to follow.

          >There is no one right answer, people disagree on morality all the time.
          Oh so now it's a matter of debate, not just a "normal" thing that everyone is born with. Now we are making progress.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            >not just a "normal" thing that everyone is born with
            No. most people are born with a sense of morality, how that ends up growing, interpreting, manifesting and changing in a person varies, though generally you have vast agreement on many points within any given culture, but that is not locked in, individuals and groups can and do sway the cultural morality.
            It’s crazy that you can’t follow this.

            Not normal to be religious where I’m from btw, thought it was normal back when I left religion, and for what the 3rd time?… what’s normal does not determine what is morally correct, people disagree because morality is at least somewhat subjective.

            Do what you want anon, wear pajamas to a funeral and piss yourself, you’re a true individual ubermensch

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            So if morality is innate, and two people disagree on what is moral, how do you reconcile that? They are both relying on their inner "sense of morality". My sense of morality tells me that it is right to worship God.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            The sense of morality that is innate in humans manifests universally are a sense of fairness, reciprocity and harm reduction.
            What constitutes adhering to those principles in the vast array of scenarios we encounter is where people vary. Then of course there are a small minority of people like you who have no functional moral compass or principles at all, no conscience, empathy or functioning social emotions.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Right uh huh, and where in the Bible does it say that you can’t go shirtless in boxers to a wedding? How about sweatpants and a hoodie? Not in the Bible?
            Guess you can do it and anyone who disagrees has no footing

            I’ve got another one for you, why can’t you go to thanksgiving, drop off a box of gummy worms and leave in 5 minutes? That’s not against the Bible, guess it’s not a wrong way to behave.

            Why can’t you wear a Halloween costume you like to a nice restaurant? That’s not against the Bible, guess it’s okay then?

            Why can’t you chew loudly with your mouth open and suck your fingers?
            Does Jesus preach against that?

            Seethe. Cope. Mald. Stay mad at God.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            I accept your white flag of surrender.
            Kick rocks, pussy.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Very mature, Anon. But I remain unconvinced due to the lack of a coherent argument.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Right uh huh, and where in the Bible does it say that you can’t go shirtless in boxers to a wedding? How about sweatpants and a hoodie? Not in the Bible?
            Guess you can do it and anyone who disagrees has no footing

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            I’ve got another one for you, why can’t you go to thanksgiving, drop off a box of gummy worms and leave in 5 minutes? That’s not against the Bible, guess it’s not a wrong way to behave.

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Why can’t you wear a Halloween costume you like to a nice restaurant? That’s not against the Bible, guess it’s okay then?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            Why can’t you chew loudly with your mouth open and suck your fingers?
            Does Jesus preach against that?

          • 5 months ago
            Anonymous

            In the sermon on the mount, Jesus says do not worry about your clothing, so why can’t you wear pajamas to a funeral? Why shouldn’t you?

  9. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    >How do atheists reconcile morality with an indifferent universe? Why should humans care about suffering when the universe does not care at all?
    How do theists reconcile mortality with the idea of an afterlife? An afterlife implies there's no mortal consequences, which means life and the physical world themselves are effectively meaningless. You think you're smart, the amount of thought you ever put into this dilemma is near zero. Stick to what you're good at, letting pedophiles and dead israelites tell you how to feel.

  10. 5 months ago
    Anonymous

    Having a conscience, empathy, consequences from others.

    • 5 months ago
      Anonymous

      Also my desire to have a better society is satisfied by doing what I can in my daily life to live my values openly which include civility and morality.

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