Hello. I am a married Muslim man. I am deeply disturbed by the historicity of the crucifixion.

Hello. I am a married Muslim man. I am deeply disturbed by the historicity of the crucifixion. I am worried if I become Christian, I will lose my wife. I am growing more depressed over my crisis of faith as the days go by and my predicament. Please pray for me and offer me advice if you have any.

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  1. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    Read your book and learn your religion correctly, thats all.

  2. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    women dont have religious convictions. if you demonstrate to her the rationality of the trinity and crucifixion, and the wholesomeness of christianity, why christianity is the better long term metaphysical system, since it doesnt castrate its creative class, and the severe flaws of islam, or at least orthodox islam, shell end up becoming whatever religion her dick is, which is usually what women do.

  3. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    If you did that would be one of the greatest sacrifices you could ever make...you would prove for an absolute fact to God that He is your #1 in life.

    Also there's even more we can be sure is historical during the crucifixion, with the darkness and the quake. Non-Christian historians even report those and we can even prove it with geological evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUtwaN7lQbU

    So if you count those, we even have physical evidence for the crucifixion!

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Non-Christian historians even report those and we can even prove it with geological evidence
      the turin shroud was forensically proven to be a forgery. the catholic churchs response was, "even if it is fake, god retroactively makes it real lmao"

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        no one even mentioned the shroud of turin
        I swear, atheists sound like soundboards with rudimentary AI that spit out the most vaguely relevant thing from their training data of blog posts, even if it has nothing to do with the topic on hand. You just read the word "physical evidence" and pull out some random artifact you apparently saw someone criticize once

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          wow two documents that totally werent forged at all, that were imitable by christians of lands where christians could forge, claim there was a complete darkness. yet no other land recorded this darkness, especially not countries like china known for meticulously recording celestial phenomena, that record darknesses in the years before and after christ supposedly died. lands that early christians just so happen to be unable to forge documents in their language.

          the crucifixion darkness is a fiction, and anyone with sense can smell the bullshit.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >two documents that totally werent forged at all
            Christians were citing Phlegon of Tralles' report in public debate when Christianity was still a persecuted minority that couldn't have modified public, known texts like that. And now today, we can prove that his report is accurate with the geological evidence.

            Further, to propose Christians forged those texts you'd be proposing they were inventing arguments against their own religion! They argued against the darkness at the crucifixion being an eclipse - indeed the entire reason Julius Africanus' brought up Thallus is because Thallus said it was an eclipse and he wanted to argue against that.

            And if Phlegon of Tralles' report was forged, why make it have nothing to do with Israel or Jesus, but instead his own homeland in Anatolia?

            There's just no level where this suggestion of your's makes sense here.

            >yet no other land recorded this darkness
            We don't know its exact extent. If it were the eastern Mediterranean then the sources we have make perfect sense, being from what's today Israel, Syria, and Turkey.
            Having six sources that report one event is a LOT for something from ancient Rome!

            And beyond them, we have no Persian or Indian or Western Hemisphere historical works from the period, so there's really no one else who left written records to be consulted. Aside from the Chinese, and on them:

            >especially not countries like china known for meticulously recording celestial phenomena
            "Countries"? Who besides the Romans and Chinese has surviving written historical accounts from this period? To my knowledge it's really just them.

            Again we don't know if it went as far as China and classical Chinese sources aren't quite available in English yet to give that topic a thorough look, but there are some certainly provocative statements, see a good discussion at https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/uo5zh9/christian_scholars_say_that_there_is_a_record_of/

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            i really hate how u schizos build these gymnasiums of sophistry bc u hate being wrong

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >i really hate how u schizos build these gymnasiums of sophistry bc u hate being wrong
            I mean...if you want to consider citing published archeological research and ancient sources to get ideas about history to be a "gymnasium of sophistry" then you do you

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          >no one even mentioned the shroud of turin
          this better be a false flag

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        explain how the forget knew perfect artistic anatomy in the 1200s
        explain how the forger knew to plant pollen from the near east
        explain how the forger knew to dust travertine dust from the near east
        explain how the forger knew the forensic details of roman torture methods
        explain how the forger planted accounts of the holy shroud in byzantine histories
        explain how the forger created the image itself

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        please do you have a source on that?

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      so, seismic events that happen with regularity are proof of christianity? its not just another case of cultists claiming normal natural phenomena as supernatural evidence of their lies?

      i swear, christians on Oyish cant think clearly

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        It being a natural event like an earthquake would be way too much of a coincidence.
        Look at https://indico.ictp.it/event/a08182/session/61/contribution/39/material/0/1.pdf, in Israel, from around 1100 BC to the present, approximately 36 earthquakes can be identified in the sediment (including the one at the crucifixion).

        So that's an average of one earthquake every 87 years.

        One just happened to take place right as there was an inexplicable darkness and right at the single most religiously significant event in history, the crucifixion?

        >claiming normal natural phenomena as supernatural evidence
        What natural event? There's no natural event that makes the sun go dark for hours such that the stars can be seen.

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          not really. could just as well be natural phenomena. doesnt have to be a purported supernatural event.

          for similar reasons there was no darkness. all you guys have are records and reponses that could have been forged generations later within a week. your claim of there being public debates is also laughable, as theres no evidence of those, except documents that could also have been forged. even if christ existed around 30 BCE, christian cultists could easily have infiltrated roman records within a single generation, just as scientologists have the us governmental records in our own time, and our government has security cameras.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >all you guys have are records and reponses that could have been forged generations later within a week.
            Or could have not.
            >except documents that could also have been forged.
            Or could have not.
            >even if christ existed around 30 BCE, christian cultists could easily have infiltrated roman records within a single generation
            Or could have not.

            Your objections are incredibly weak.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            theyre not weak at all. christians forged something as complex as the turin shroud which fooled most until modern forensics proved its a medieval forgery.

            youre dishonest and just want the objections to be weak. theyre the kind of counters that broke the faith of ministers, so theyre actually quite convincing, you dolt.

            your counter claims are "b-but they might not have have been", which is incredibly limp. those the real grounds every other religions documentation stand on. in that case, theres no real reason not to believe in islam or buddhism, which is why christianity is dying, while at least one of those religions is gradually taking its place in the west.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            Are you making a positive claim that early Christians did one or any of those things, yes or no?

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            my only claims are against the positions of unpersuasive, blunt dolts. i b***hed at nontheists here:

            [...]

            i dont have anything against a particular belief, what i hate is stupid people convinced theyre right when they havent made their case at all. for what its worth, i think the trinity anon actually made a strong logical case in favor of the trinity.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >christians forged something as complex as the turin shroud
            The sole evidence for it being supposedly forged is the fact that the carbon traces aren't decayed enough (that's how carbon dating works, you know). Which is what you'd expect from a resurrection, no?

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            u dont know what ur talking abt so im just going to copypasta from wikipedia
            In 1998, shroud researcher Joe Nickell wrote that no examples of herringbone weave are known from the time of Jesus. The few samples of burial cloths that are known from the era are made using plain weave.[34] In 2000, fragments of a burial shroud from the 1st century were discovered in a tomb near Jerusalem, believed to have belonged to a israeli high priest or member of the aristocracy. Based on this discovery, the researchers concluded that the Turin Shroud did not originate from Jesus-era Jerusalem.[95][96][97]
            thats all ur worth. tired of u idiots

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herringbone_(cloth)

            >Various herringbone weaves have been found in antiquity:

            >A pair of woolen leggings found in the permafrost of the Italian-Austrian Alps have a 2:2 herringbone weave, dating to 800 to 500 BC.[6]
            >A dark blue cloth with a 2:2 herringbone weave was found at Murabba'at Cave in Israel, from the Roman period.[6][7]
            >A textile with a 2:2 herringbone weave was found at Pompeii, from 79 AD.[6]

            You I believe you have been misled.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >christian cultists could easily have infiltrated roman records
            This is conspiracy theory tier thinking.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >for similar reasons there was no darkness. all you guys have are records and reponses that could have been forged generations later within a week. your claim of there being public debates is also laughable, as theres no evidence of those, except documents that could also have been forged. even if christ existed around 30 BCE, christian cultists could easily have infiltrated roman records within a single generation, just as scientologists have the us governmental records in our own time, and our government has security cameras.
            I really love how these schizo theories have to make the early Christians into cunning masterminds manipulating the entirety of society in order for them to make sense.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >could just as well be natural phenomena
            You really see a once-in-a-century event (and that's just the quake mind you, NOTHING natural makes the sun go dark for hours such that the stars are visible) taking place right at the most religiously significant event in history, and say "just a coincidence"?

            >all you guys have are records
            Yeah only we had something besides records and physical evidence
            I can't add an eyeroll emoji, but please, do your best to picture one here.

            >that could have been forged generations
            Now you're just repeating yourself. Asked and answered mate. See

            >two documents that totally werent forged at all
            Christians were citing Phlegon of Tralles' report in public debate when Christianity was still a persecuted minority that couldn't have modified public, known texts like that. And now today, we can prove that his report is accurate with the geological evidence.

            Further, to propose Christians forged those texts you'd be proposing they were inventing arguments against their own religion! They argued against the darkness at the crucifixion being an eclipse - indeed the entire reason Julius Africanus' brought up Thallus is because Thallus said it was an eclipse and he wanted to argue against that.

            And if Phlegon of Tralles' report was forged, why make it have nothing to do with Israel or Jesus, but instead his own homeland in Anatolia?

            There's just no level where this suggestion of your's makes sense here.

            >yet no other land recorded this darkness
            We don't know its exact extent. If it were the eastern Mediterranean then the sources we have make perfect sense, being from what's today Israel, Syria, and Turkey.
            Having six sources that report one event is a LOT for something from ancient Rome!

            And beyond them, we have no Persian or Indian or Western Hemisphere historical works from the period, so there's really no one else who left written records to be consulted. Aside from the Chinese, and on them:

            >especially not countries like china known for meticulously recording celestial phenomena
            "Countries"? Who besides the Romans and Chinese has surviving written historical accounts from this period? To my knowledge it's really just them.

            Again we don't know if it went as far as China and classical Chinese sources aren't quite available in English yet to give that topic a thorough look, but there are some certainly provocative statements, see a good discussion at https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/uo5zh9/christian_scholars_say_that_there_is_a_record_of/

            >your claim of there being public debates is also laughable
            The document I had in mind is Origen's Contra Celsus. He wrote it as a reply to Celsus, who argued against Christianity, much as I'm now writing this here in our debate. In chapter 59 of that work, which you can read here: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04162.htm he wrote:

            "He imagines also that both the earthquake and the darkness were an invention; but regarding these, we have in the preceding pages, made our defense, according to our ability, adducing the testimony of Phlegon, who relates that these events took place..."

            >existed around 30 BCE, christian cultists could easily have infiltrated roman records within a single generation, just as scientologists have the us governmental records in our own time, and our government has security cameras
            Remember that there is _NO_ evidence you can't ever respond to with a conspiracy theory. I could just as easily say "we'd have even more evidence for the darkness and the quake but Romans and later Deists destroyed lots of it to keep Christians from using it".

            So coming up with a conspiracy theory doesn't actually ever assist any side in any discussion unless they can actually produce some evidence for that conspiracy.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >NOTHING natural makes the sun go dark for hours such that the stars are visible
            u sound rly convinced this actually happened when the forgery claims are point blank just as likely

            >So coming up with a conspiracy theory doesn't actually ever assist any side in any discussion unless they can actually produce some evidence for that conspiracy
            u mean like the historically confirmable analogies i posted yet u conveniently ignore? also the fact that christians are too afraid to let the records be submitted to forensics shows they have something to hide. but none of that is going to convince a moron like u personally, while christian numbers continue to shrink around u.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >the forgery claims are point blank just as likely
            And I challenged you on that, point-by-point. Do you care to respond to any of that?
            If the documents were somehow made by some conspiracy cabal just making things up then archeology wouldn't be verifying them today to within as close as the margin of error with our modern techniques can take us.

            >u mean like the historically confirmable analogies i posted yet u conveniently ignore?
            What analogies?

            >also the fact that christians are too afraid to let the records be submitted to forensics
            Not so, studying ancient manuscripts, including of these works, is an extremely common scholarly pursuit. For instance at https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/e873ecff-7b8d-4826-a1dd-62e4e2ac1c8f/surfaces/35c205c2-f7dd-4021-a7da-57385bcf219c/ and in pic related you can see the earliest manuscript we have of the Thallus reference. This is available for scrutiny by anyone who cares to scrutinize it.

            >while christian numbers continue to shrink around u.
            Maybe in some specific areas but on a global scale there are more Christians added to the world than at any time in all of history!

  4. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    just accept that 4:157 is an interpolation akhi
    no other Quranic text interrelates with it

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      wym? it rhymes and corresponds to its surrounding verses.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      Stop false flagging, you're not a muslim.

  5. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    You should be honest and up front with her about it. If she runs to her family or God forbid another man to tattle on you, you'll know for sure where she stands. Something tells me you don't have to worry about anything like that.

    If you don't already have kids, it's not the end of the world.

    If you do have kids, I advise you to exercise extreme caution and seek out the council of a priest before doing anything rash.

  6. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/143146/how-we-should-react-to-websites-that-vilify-islam-and-what-are-the-ways-in-which-we-can-support-islam
    >The websites that speak ill of the religion of Allah and of His Messenger (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) are no different from the gatherings where people say similar things that constitute kufr. In both cases it is haraam to stay in such gatherings and it is haraam to visit such websites, except for one who will object to what they do and is able to put a stop to these offences. If he is not able to do that, and those people carry on with what they are doing, then it is not permissible to remain in that gathering and it is not permissible to visit those websites.

  7. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    >I am deeply disturbed by the historicity of the crucifixion.
    What do you mean by historicity? This has nothing to do with either Islam or Christianity

  8. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    Nabeel described struggling with the same thing in his book "No God but One: Allah or Jesus?" you may want to read that, it also touches on the struggle of choosing God or humans.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      I second this. This was a game changer for me on the christianity vs islam debate

  9. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    You sound very moronic.

  10. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    Jesus didn't exist. Neither did mohammed. Everything you've been fed is a lie, parroted by mindless NPCs that can't think outside the narrow bounds of what society told them.

  11. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    The Gnostics and the Quran (and some Muslims) were right about the crucifixion.

  12. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    The Quran says he appeared to be crucified. What is the problem?

  13. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    If you really truly believe Jesus died for your sins and you should convert, the only advice I can give is bite the bullet and accept what may come. It's either that, or live a stressful lie until God calls you to judgement. I know this sort of thing is scary and difficult, so I don't want to make light of that. I'll be praying for you.

  14. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    Don't be afraid, embrace the light. Jesus died for Muslims too and is ready to welcome you into his fold as soon as you will accept him as your Lord and Saviour. But you must renounce the false religion of Islam and relinquish whatever trust your have in your own works to save you, putting all your faith in Jesus.

    Do not let your fears of how your family may react discourage you. You do not know what a day will bring forth. Hopefully after your conversion you can be a witness of the grace of God unto your wife and she too accepts the truth rather than shut it down. Just trust in God, all things work together for good to them that love him.

    At the end of the day however, what are your personal relationships in this temporal world to be compared with eternal life and fellowship with God and his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ?

    "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." -John 20:31

  15. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    Your situation seems hard because of your wife, but Christianity is a scam just as Islam is. Sorry to break it down like this.

  16. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    >the historicity of the crucifixion
    The 12 Disciples didn't witness the crucifixion according to the Gospels. So, when supposedly "Matthew" and "John" wrote their gospels, they were either inspired by the Holy Spirit(none of the gospels claim to be inspired) or were compiled from hearsay.

    A close reading of,
    >1. Galatians: "have I not portrayed Christ as crucified to you?"
    >2. Corinthians: Paul mentions "enemies of the cross"
    >3. Ignatius' Epistle to the Magnesians: "on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny"
    Indicates that there were First Century Christians who denied the death and crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

    And as attested to in Magnesians, they were israeli Christians who kept the Law, the movement which we knew James, the brother of Jesus, headed after Christ, as attested to by Josephus and in Acts, who is strangely absent in the narratives of the Gospels

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >The 12 Disciples didn't witness the crucifixion according to the Gospels. So, when supposedly "Matthew" and "John" wrote their gospels, they were either inspired by the Holy Spirit(none of the gospels claim to be inspired) or were compiled from hearsay.
      I mean, Jesus's mother was there, and Jesus did return for over a month before ascending to heaven.

  17. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    >https://ismailignosis.com/2013/03/29/the-crucifixion-in-shia-ismaili-islam/
    Read that and you'll be fine

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Qur'an: They did not crucify him
      >Shia: Hmmm, i think this means they DID crucify him

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        Stop posting pictures of yourself.

  18. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    >implying Jesus having been crucified means he's God
    Ever heard of unitian christians, morons?

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Ever heard of unitian christians, morons?
      Oh you mean the JWs?

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        JWs aren't the only unitarian christians, thank God.

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