Christians,

Christians,

How would your life change if you found out Christianity wasn’t true, objective morality isn’t real, you will die when your heart stops, and we are a species of great ape that evolved from the same line as chimpanzees and bonobos a few hundred thousand years ago?

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  1. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    I would become Machiavellian and even more fatalistic than I am now.
    >we are a species of great ape
    Non-controversial outside America and rural Africa.

  2. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    That would be pretty wild considering people generally don't die as soon as their heart stops and the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps probably dates to around ten million years ago.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      I didn’t say at the exact moment your heart stops, but when it does stop you will be dead within minutes. Humans didn’t evolve as soon as they split from bonobos and chimpanzees, we didn’t become humans until a few hundred thousand years ago.
      Now do you have an answer to the question?

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        You can survive a stopped heart. We factually didn't evolve from the same line as chimpanzees and bonobos a few hundred thousand years ago, we evolved a few hundred thousand years ago, likely from homosexual heidelbergensis, and our distant ancestors evolved from the same line as the chimps and bonobos millions of years ago. Not my problem that you suck at phrasing.

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          When your heart stops for the last time you will die.
          We do evolve from the same line as chimps and bonobos, we did evolve a few hundred thousand years ago, you are just too cowardly to answer the question, noted.

          Virtually everyone has this problem. 90% of political discourse today is built on beliefs that are either wrong or contradictory, but people stick to them because for a healthy development they have to have some.
          nta

          I’m not focused on politics here but Christians have politics that internally contradict and/or contradict their religion.
          Now how does your life change if you find out Christianity isn’t true, you’re mortal and evolved naturally from other apes?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I’m not focused on politics here
            I know. It was just an illustration of the "problem" you brought up being much more widespread than you might think.
            >Christians have politics that internally contradict and/or contradict their religion
            Some do.
            >how does your life change
            Like this

            I would become Machiavellian and even more fatalistic than I am now.
            >we are a species of great ape
            Non-controversial outside America and rural Africa.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >know. It was just an illustration of the "problem" you brought up being much more widespread than you might think.
            And my counter is that Christianity doesn’t prevent people from having ideas that contradict themselves. I’m also going to keep stressing that I’ve never even heard of a political party or politician that actually emulates the teachings of Christianity

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I didn't propose Christianity as a solution to this "problem". I pointed out the "problem" of people needing fundamental beliefs (to the point of accepting contradictory ones) is so widespread your request in the last few words of

            Okay so you’re not choosing Christianity because you think it’s true, you’re following it because you feel like you need it.
            I hope you don’t push it on people and antagonize those who don’t have this problem

            don't really make sense.
            >I’m also going to keep stressing that I’ve never even heard of a political party or politician that actually emulates the teachings of Christianity
            Why do you stress that? Nothing I say relies on politics being a channel for religious teachings.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I pointed out the "problem" of people needing fundamental beliefs
            People have those without religion and they have contradictory beliefs with religion.
            It does not stop contradictory beliefs.
            I mean you guys pretending to be Christian when you don’t actually believing it is as contradictory and nonsensical as the most insane green haired college girl.
            It also refutes your own point, because Christianity isn’t actually the foundation of your LARPing, you’re just using Christianity to promote your secularly founded conservative (or whatever type) of beliefs.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >It does not stop contradictory beliefs.
            I didn't claim it does. Please revisit

            I didn't propose Christianity as a solution to this "problem". I pointed out the "problem" of people needing fundamental beliefs (to the point of accepting contradictory ones) is so widespread your request in the last few words of [...] don't really make sense.
            >I’m also going to keep stressing that I’ve never even heard of a political party or politician that actually emulates the teachings of Christianity
            Why do you stress that? Nothing I say relies on politics being a channel for religious teachings.

            > you don’t actually believing
            Nobody in this thread said this either.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Maybe I’m not being clear enough. I don’t think contradictory beliefs are good and I think your ideas should make coherent sense from your axioms to all of your beliefs.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I think so too. So far I can't see that anyone has managed.

            >One poster (who does think it's true) admit he would follow it even if it wasn't
            Which means he doesn’t care if it’s true.
            He would follow it even if it was false.

            >Which means he doesn’t care if it’s true.
            Non sequitur.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >So far I can't see that anyone has managed
            That sucks, I know many.

            It’s not a non-sequitur, if you’re saying you would still follow Christianity if it was false and promote it then it’s entirely possible you’re larping right now.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I know many.
            Any publications I would know? If not, please have them publish. They are hiding a completely revolutionary paradigm. Unless, of course, they're solipsists.

            > if you’re saying you would still follow Christianity if it was false and promote it then it’s entirely possible you’re larping right now.
            And if the original claim were that LARPing is "possible", I would have agreed.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Any publications I would know?
            Anon I would say the minority of political ideologies are internally contradictory.

            >And if the original claim were that LARPing is "possible", I would have agreed.
            That’s what it means when you say “I think this is happening” when I say “I think people here are LARPing” I’m also saying “it’s possible that people here are LARPing”

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Anon I would say the minority of political ideologies are internally contradictory.
            My point wasn't about political ideologies. Anon, what do you think I said in

            Virtually everyone has this problem. 90% of political discourse today is built on beliefs that are either wrong or contradictory, but people stick to them because for a healthy development they have to have some.
            nta

            ?

            >I’m also saying “it’s possible
            If you belive they possibly might not care it has nothing to do with my reply to

            Anon several posters here admit that they don’t actually care if Christianity is true.

            , which is a bit more conclusive: "they don’t actually care".

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            They don’t actually care if it’s false as in they would pretend to be a Christian even if they found out it was false. Context clues my friend.

            I truly don’t know what you’re trying to say with your other points. We don’t need to contradict ourselves and I don’t think we should. The admirable people I know are always trying to get closer to the truth and live according to it and I do the same.
            Don’t think it’s hard to argue that most people with lives they have fricked up or are actively fricking up are not lying to themselves which causes their problems and makes them worse, and cognitive dissonance is an inherently stress and anxiety causing state.

            A true and coherent worldview is ideal and to be strived for.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yes, I know what the subject of the care was.I didn't miss clues, it was just a plain conclusive statement. If you meant it all hypothetically, I no longer need engage.

            >A true and coherent worldview is ideal and to be strived for.
            Agreed. I don't see that anyone has managed. Perhaps someone has made a political proposition or an entire programme that doesn't explicitly contradict itself. But worldviews as such are all incoherent as far as I've seen. And yet people don't abandon them. Fundamental beliefs are a necessity and inconsistencies are tolerable.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Agreed
            >proceeds to not agree

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >>>"We should do this"
            >>"We are shit at it, but we should do this, yes"

            >apparently a disagreement

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You said inconsistencies are tolerable, I disagree. They should be corrected whenever they are discovered,

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Them being tolerable is a descriptive statement, not normative.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Okay well if you found out Christianity was false then you should abandon it unless you don’t actually care what’s true and what makes coherent sense.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Abandon it for what? You're making these statements as though there is a completely coherent and true worldview out there to which we can switch. There really isn't.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            The frick you mean abandon it for what?
            You still live your life you just stop going to church, stop praying (at least with the thought that you’re talking to the Christian god) and drop any moral hangups from the Bible that you don’t personally agree with.
            People do this everyday and they’ve been doing it their whole lives.

            Some people have never been Christian and are still logical and rational people going about their day.
            Not a big deal bud

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The frick you mean abandon it for what?
            My point was that fundamental beliefs are necessary. We should indeed switch from poor ones to better ones. Which specific one would be the better one in this case?
            >You still live your life
            >People do this everyday
            And all of them have fundamental beliefs of one kind or another.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Imagine this anon, everything that is still true is true, but subtract Christianity.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >which specific [belief]
            >everything that is still true
            I think you illustrate my point nicely.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Oh were you saying people need to found their beliefs in some meta-narrative they can’t prove? I reject that. You can just be agnostic or embrace the mystery.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            People do need to found their beliefs, yes. And unless it's turtles all the way down, at some point it will be beyond verification. That is precisely the embracing of the mystery.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >People do need to found their beliefs, yes.
            Not him, but that's bullshit. You only think this because you're a neet with too much time on his hands.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You think you have no foundational beliefs?

            Anon you know that there are countless guys out there who are intelligent, have coherent thoughts on a range of subjects, with more money than you, better put together, with kids, a hot wife and a nice life that do not have a definitive answer on “where does the universe come from” right? It’s not actually necessary, you probably have OCD or some OCD adjacent neuroses.

            You think they have no foundational beliefs?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Yes anon in my experience most people don’t have a hard answer on what they believed caused the Big Bang or where the universe comes from. I sincerely do believe you have some type of obsessive anxiety disorder if you need this.
            See a doctor or try working out.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Not what I asked. Do you think they have no foundational beliefs?

            >You think you have no foundational beliefs?
            I do in the technical epistemological sense (though some philosophers would argue that such attitudes aren't doxastic per se), but those things aren't equivalent to what you're talking about in terms of a replacement metanarrative.

            They are exactly equivalent. A meta-narrative is the paradigm.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >They are exactly equivalent. A meta-narrative is the paradigm.
            They are not, because those "beliefs" are things that pretty much everyone takes for granted regardless of any other beliefs, religious or otherwise.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            No, not regardless of other beliefs. Statements and beliefs only make sense within a framework. Meta-narrative, such as Christian dogmas, form one such paradigm. They are not additional beliefs super-imposed or attached to the rest, they are the fundament.

            Yes anon in my experience most people don’t have a hard answer on what they believed caused the Big Bang or where the universe comes from. I sincerely do believe you have some type of obsessive anxiety disorder if you need this.
            See a doctor or try working out.

            would like to believe that there is no fundament, that beliefs are a collection of items of no necessary hierarchy and one can be dropped without necessarily causing the rest to collapse. This is absurd. If tomorrow we proved that matter is not real, the Anon wouldn't just make a note and then go make money for kids and a hot wife lol.
            As much as you guys would prefer to not consciously realize your fundamental beliefs, they are there. And they cannot be abandoned. They have to be replaced.

            Elaborate on what you mean by foundational beliefs. Examples usually help

            Why are you arguing with me if you don't know what I'm talking about? See above.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I was just checking that I knew what you meant and I was correct.
            So I can answer another one of your questions now
            What is the alternative to Christianity?
            That story is a myth, the religion isn’t true, we evolved from other apes on earth, the universe is way bigger and older than you thought, the ultimate questions of the universe are still a mystery, though we do know a lot of the mechanics of the universe and can make logical judgments off of knowledge of those all the way downstream.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Were you correct? Because you again treat it as a belief merely attached to the rest. A belief that can be discarded without taking others with it. It is not so and when you address your own beliefs (or the example in

            No, not regardless of other beliefs. Statements and beliefs only make sense within a framework. Meta-narrative, such as Christian dogmas, form one such paradigm. They are not additional beliefs super-imposed or attached to the rest, they are the fundament. [...] would like to believe that there is no fundament, that beliefs are a collection of items of no necessary hierarchy and one can be dropped without necessarily causing the rest to collapse. This is absurd. If tomorrow we proved that matter is not real, the Anon wouldn't just make a note and then go make money for kids and a hot wife lol.
            As much as you guys would prefer to not consciously realize your fundamental beliefs, they are there. And they cannot be abandoned. They have to be replaced.

            [...]
            Why are you arguing with me if you don't know what I'm talking about? See above.

            ), you will hopefully realize.

            Nope, you are just fundamentally autistic. Things like 1+1=2 or modus ponens aren't metanarratives no matter how many tantrums you throw.

            >Things like 1+1=2 or modus ponens aren't metanarratives no matter how many tantrums you throw.
            Huh? lol I never argued they are.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Huh? lol I never argued they are.
            Alright, in that case you are wrong and I don't subscribe to a particular metanarrative.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You absolutely do. Perhaps your weird 1+1=2 example was a case of you confusing "metanarratives are axioms" with "axioms are meta-narratives" but either way you do have a paradigm no matter what. If you don't realize it, chances are it's really just a passive assimilation of what everyone around you thinks.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I gave you that particular example because it's the closest thing to a foundational belief that I have. "T-that's not true!" is not an argument.
            If you disagree, ask me a series of questions in areas where my foundational beliefs would lay if I had any.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            What created the universe?
            Did anything create the universe?
            Why does the universe exist?
            Does “why” even apply to this question?

            These are all mysteries. That’s the replacement for the belief Yahweh and J-bone created the universe.

            Where did the sun come from?
            It’s hydrogen it coalesced in a cloud of hydrogen which are everywhere in space. It’s a natural fusion reactor fusing under its own weight

            Where did the earth come from? Cloud of elements just like the sun but on the periphery.

            Where did the first life come from?
            Mystery with a few plausible natural options
            Where did animals and plants come from?
            They evolved for 4 billion years.
            Where did humans come from?
            Same, that’s a paradigm shift for you.

            Why do we feel social emotions?
            Because they are social traits to make us social animals which was beneficial to primate survival and reproduction.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            > that’s a paradigm shift for you
            It's close.

            Sure let’s call it replacing Christianity. It’s not folk materialism just basic facts about reality.

            As a paradigm it is fold materialism.

            I gave you that particular example because it's the closest thing to a foundational belief that I have. "T-that's not true!" is not an argument.
            If you disagree, ask me a series of questions in areas where my foundational beliefs would lay if I had any.

            >it's the closest thing to a foundational belief that I have
            Almost certainly not.
            >"T-that's not true!" is not an argument.
            Correct. Volumes of research on beliefs and cognitive models are an argument.
            >If you disagree, ask me a series of questions in areas where my foundational beliefs would lay if I had any.
            What is real?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Sure call it materialism, I think it’s an inadequate term and prefer physicalism. But sure that’s, your answer you’ve been asking for.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Physicalism is appropriate.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            But we were looking for beliefs that are better than Christianity to fall back on. How is physicalism better? It is a worldview that omits basically most facts about life, most importantly consciousness.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Because it’s true anon. Again I don’t care about what helps you sleep at night and calms your anxiety, I just care about what is true. If it’s harder to live with then you toughen up. You should blame whoever indoctrinated you into lies if you can’t take the heat of truth. If you think consciousness is separate from physical reality physically slam your physical head where your physical brain with its physical labyrinth of electrical circuitry is located onto the pavement and tell me it doesn’t affect your supposedly non-physical consciousness.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            basically most facts
            >It is true, true, true, suck it up
            Great case, thanks for the reply. You don't have to write more.

            >Does it exist alone?
            I don't know.

            I asked what you believe, not know.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I asked what you believe, not know.
            I'm undecided. Maybe idealism is the correct way of looking at things and all that exists is experience. Maybe not.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You're not going to maybe your way through this, I'm afraid. Even if you answer "maybe" to every question I ask, with each sentence you write you list premises underlying that answer. Such as the possibility you admit of epistemologically appropriate worldviews you listed just now. And furthermore, you don't act out "maybes" in your life. You act out your beliefs.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Assuming I really do exist in some relevant capacity and that I really act, I act out of habit. All the other mental masturbation has nothing to do with it.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            If you want to see yourself as an unthinking automaton, sure - all your beliefs are merely habits you acquired from your surrounding. A behaviorist view of self to say the least. I will now go mentally jerk off to "matter is real" I guess.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            When did I say that I'm an unthinking automaton? You seem to be very confused right now, not to mention slightly distraught.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            In replacing thought by behavior in your view of self. As in replacing belief by habit.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I didn't do anything like that though, I'm just saying that constantly analyzing the bottom layer is unnecessary. A farmer wakes up in the middle of the night and hears a loud noise from the chicken coop. He gets up, grabs his rifle and goes to investigate. When he sees a fox, he shoots it.
            It's not necessarily that he wasn't guided by any sort of thought process, he just didn't spend any time considering whether matter is real because he already habitually acts like it is. If you ask him, he may lend credence to the idea that it's not, but he'll still get up and grab the rifle when he hears a bump in the night.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I'm just saying that constantly analyzing the bottom layer is unnecessary
            Agreed. My point is that there is a bottom layer at all, not that it is being re-processed over and over. A farmer will very readily admit belief in the reality of matter and the validity of causation. He shot a rifle.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Well, I disagree that such a thing is a belief at all. But regardless, if the farmer used to be a christian and then lost his faith, he won't stop getting up at night when he hears a weird noise. Neither will he if he was raised Hindu and lost his faith, if he was raised agnostic, if he was raised atheist or if he'd never heard of the concept of religion and the thought of whether matter is real never crossed his mind in his entire life.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >But regardless, if the farmer used to be a christian and then lost his faith, he won't stop getting up at night when he hears a weird noise.
            If OP loses his belief in matter being real, he will likely be checking weird noises too. But he will seek to replace the belief. Just like in this thread we've seen people argue that physicalism may replace theism.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Let's get all the bullshit out of the way, anon. I used to be a catholic. What do you think I replaced the belief in a triune god with?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Physicalism.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            But I already told you that I think idealism is a perfectly viable alternative. I don't think you're paying much attention.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            And at some point you might replace physicalism with idealism. You just haven't.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I don't subscribe to physicalism though.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            And as per

            Nope, you are just fundamentally autistic. Things like 1+1=2 or modus ponens aren't metanarratives no matter how many tantrums you throw.

            (if that is you), you really haven't given enough thought to your "bottom layer" to know what it contains. This suggests your paradigm wasn't consciously built, it was just adapted from your surroundings. The predominant paradigm is physicalism. You claiming you don't subscribe to it would have a lot more weight if you had actually inspected your beliefs instead of switching them for habits in

            Assuming I really do exist in some relevant capacity and that I really act, I act out of habit. All the other mental masturbation has nothing to do with it.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You're reading things into my comments which aren't there. I act (if I indeed do) like I am a mind, or part of a mind, which encounters experiences based on it's actions. I don't know what the underlying mechanism is. That's all there is to it.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I don't know
            I didn't discuss knowledge.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            And I don't have any particular beliefs regarding the topic either. I've thought about it and haven't come across a reason to believe any particular framework is correct.
            But that's just entertainment anyway, it really has no impact on me getting out of bed every day.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            It very much has an impact but perhaps you'd have to inspect how your beliefs relate to each other. It seems your only argument is that you're open minded to one day believe something else. That is fine. I am too. But I won't pretend I don't have beliefs just because they are uncertain or unconscious.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Open-minded to believing something else than what?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Physicalism.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I don't believe in physicalism though. On the other hand, it seems like you really want me to believe in it. Why?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I don't believe in physicalism though.
            I would believe this if you had inspected your beliefs at all or at least understood what the term implies.
            > seems like you really want me to believe in it
            Lol

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I did inspect my beliefs though. I used to believe in dualism, but then I realized that I don't have any good reason to believe in it so I stopped. I haven't found any reason to believe in any other system so I don't believe in them either. Is that a problem?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You conflated belief and habit, belief and knowledge, holding a belief and evaluating a belief etc. That is the first problem in me trusting anything you say about belief - you are very uncertain about its meaning. Secondly, as I pointed out in

            You're not going to maybe your way through this, I'm afraid. Even if you answer "maybe" to every question I ask, with each sentence you write you list premises underlying that answer. Such as the possibility you admit of epistemologically appropriate worldviews you listed just now. And furthermore, you don't act out "maybes" in your life. You act out your beliefs.

            , claiming 'maybe's to all belief will not make your case for the reasons listed there. You are doing just that.

            I don't remember where I read it, but there was a parable of a buddhist monk who was so skeptical he did not believe anything and he continuously marveled at things. He made a stroke with a pencil and marveled that the pencil has caused a line. Not trusting even his own memory, he would refuse to believe that this was really the case and he made another stroke right away, wondering at the sight.
            This is the closest I've ever heard anyone come to a state of missing fundamental beliefs. "Maybe something else is true" doesn't come close at all, I'm sorry to disappoint.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You seem to be extremely confused, anon. I specifically differentiated between belief and habit so as to not conflate them. I also never conflated evaluating a belief and holding a belief, I just gave you a specific example where I evaluated a belief and then after that stopped holding that belief - notice that those are two connected but different things.
            Your comment about maybes was already addressed, the fact that I'm in the habit of acting a certain way doesn't imply that I hold some metaphysical belief.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I also never conflated evaluating a belief and holding a belief,
            See "I'm just saying that constantly analyzing the bottom layer is unnecessary" - nobody besides you has mentioned this.
            >the fact that I'm in the habit of acting a certain way doesn't imply that I hold some metaphysical belief.
            It implies you hold a belief at all, yes. Again, you are uncertain of what beliefs are.

            How did you not get stuck wondering that a keyboard makes a sound, like the monk would? I thought you had no underlying beliefs.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >See "I'm just saying that constantly analyzing the bottom layer is unnecessary" - nobody besides you has mentioned this.
            I wasn't talking about epistemology there, I was talking about metaphysics.
            >It implies you hold a belief at all, yes. Again, you are uncertain of what beliefs are.
            Why do you think that my habit is based on a belief?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I wasn't talking about epistemology there, I was talking about metaphysics.
            You were talking about analyzing. I wasn't. It was your conflation.
            >Why do you think that my habit is based on a belief?
            Because habit is repeated action. Action is based on belief, barring reflexes and involuntary processes. Are you habits involuntary?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You were talking about analyzing. I wasn't. It was your conflation.
            I wasn't talking about analyzing beliefs. Stop conflating.
            >Because habit is repeated action. Action is based on belief, barring reflexes and involuntary processes. Are you habits involuntary?
            I'm not sure if that's a true dichotomy. Most of my habits probably aren't based on beliefs, but a lot of them aren't involuntary either. I have a habit of smelling a cigarette after I roll it, and the action is perfectly voluntary.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I wasn't talking about analyzing beliefs
            See

            I didn't do anything like that though, I'm just saying that constantly analyzing the bottom layer is unnecessary. A farmer wakes up in the middle of the night and hears a loud noise from the chicken coop. He gets up, grabs his rifle and goes to investigate. When he sees a fox, he shoots it.
            It's not necessarily that he wasn't guided by any sort of thought process, he just didn't spend any time considering whether matter is real because he already habitually acts like it is. If you ask him, he may lend credence to the idea that it's not, but he'll still get up and grab the rifle when he hears a bump in the night.

            >>>>I'm just saying that constantly analyzing the bottom layer is unnecessary.

            >I have a habit of smelling a cigarette after I roll it, and the action is perfectly voluntary.
            And perfectly based on beliefs you have about your senses, cigarettes and memory.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >See

            I didn't do anything like that though, I'm just saying that constantly analyzing the bottom layer is unnecessary. A farmer wakes up in the middle of the night and hears a loud noise from the chicken coop. He gets up, grabs his rifle and goes to investigate. When he sees a fox, he shoots it.


            It's not necessarily that he wasn't guided by any sort of thought process, he just didn't spend any time considering whether matter is real because he already habitually acts like it is. If you ask him, he may lend credence to the idea that it's not, but he'll still get up and grab the rifle when he hears a bump in the night. (You) #
            Once again, I wasn't talking about analyzing beliefs. Stop conflating.
            >And perfectly based on beliefs you have about your senses, cigarettes and memory.
            Not really. If you conclusively proved that all of those things are illusory, I'd still sniff that cigarette.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I literally quoted you lol
            I see you're progressing towards the wondering monk very gradually but very certainly. Memory is starting to go.

            >If you conclusively proved that all of those things are illusory, I'd still sniff that cigarette.
            Absolutely! Still acting on beliefs.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            If your consciousness isn’t physical then why is it dependent on the physical condition of your brain, its circuitry and its physical firing patterns? Why can I alter it or turn it off with chemicals, lack of nutrients, introduction of nutrients, physical aging and alteration of the circuits and physical damage?
            Grow up man, you’ll have to face it eventually, stop running away.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >If your consciousness isn’t physical then why is it dependent on the physical condition of your brain
            It isn't. Its content is.

            I like how atheists took the place of Christians in being defensive and aggravated when realizing their worldview isn't a guaranteed no-brainer.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I’ll be more specific, agnostic physicalism. Though not named it is a very common belief these days and it’s solid

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >it’s solid
            It appears solid because it makes an effor to address as few things as possible. See

            But we were looking for beliefs that are better than Christianity to fall back on. How is physicalism better? It is a worldview that omits basically most facts about life, most importantly consciousness.

            - nature of our conscious existence (plus a very good chunk of experiences people have had) are a discipline where physicalism is forced to perform double backflips.

            >What is real?
            I don't really know. There is some sort of experience that I like to think of as mine, but other than that I couldn't say.

            You don't know if stuff like matter is real, anon?
            >experience
            Is experience real?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You don't know if stuff like matter is real, anon?
            I'll do you one better - even if matter exists, I don't know what it is.
            >Is experience real?
            Some sort of experience exists.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >even if matter exists, I don't know what it is.
            I love it.
            >>Is experience real?
            >Some sort of experience exists.
            Does it exist alone?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Does it exist alone?
            I don't know.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >What is real?
            I don't really know. There is some sort of experience that I like to think of as mine, but other than that I couldn't say.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Nope, you are just fundamentally autistic. Things like 1+1=2 or modus ponens aren't metanarratives no matter how many tantrums you throw.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Elaborate on what you mean by foundational beliefs. Examples usually help

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >You think you have no foundational beliefs?
            I do in the technical epistemological sense (though some philosophers would argue that such attitudes aren't doxastic per se), but those things aren't equivalent to what you're talking about in terms of a replacement metanarrative.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Anon you know that there are countless guys out there who are intelligent, have coherent thoughts on a range of subjects, with more money than you, better put together, with kids, a hot wife and a nice life that do not have a definitive answer on “where does the universe come from” right? It’s not actually necessary, you probably have OCD or some OCD adjacent neuroses.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >people can earn money without thinking too deep
            Amazing.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Anon I’m not saying they don’t think about it or never think about it. I’m saying they can accept that they don’t know and you likely have some sort of anxiety disorder preventing you from doing the same.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >We should strive for 100% consistency and correct all flaws in our worldview
            >Lol why do you need so many answers, neurotic much?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I’m pointing out that it’s the indicative of an anxiety disorder that you can’t accept that everyone’s knowledge terminates in an ultimate mystery of the biggest questions.
            You need to have an answer at the bottom even though no one has it, at least for now.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >you can’t accept that everyone’s knowledge terminates in an ultimate mystery of the biggest questions
            I did accept that.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            But you are proposing you need to put Christianity or some hard answer in place of that mystery, you can just leave it as is and pick up at the universe is controlled by forces and made out of energy, earth is 4.5 billion years old, life evolved from a bacterium

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >you can just leave it as is and pick up at [folk materialism]
            Congrats. You did the exact thing you argued against. Replaced the belief instead of dropped it.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Sure let’s call it replacing Christianity. It’s not folk materialism just basic facts about reality.

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        Is there a reason to act differently? has Christianity not benefitted us?
        if something is untrue but beneficial, why drop it? isnt the basis of evolution that fitness is superior to truth?

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          >has Christianity not benefitted us?
          I don’t think it’s benefits outweigh the costs, most of you clearly cherry-pick which parts of the Bible you care about and put inordinate amounts of importance on parts like disapproving of gays compared to helping the poor and sick for example.
          I am fundamentally opposed to choosing comforting delusions over hard truth as well. Anytime I’ve ever made great strides forward and seen that in others it is almost always somewhat related to acting on truth you were ignoring or missing before

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Did you ever compare the Catholic budget on helping the poor vs the budget on disapproving of gays?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Believe it or not there are better ways to pool money from the public and help the poor. I used to be poor I got way more help from governments than any church.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I wasn't replying to a statement about efficience but about importance/priority. I don't see how anyone can even nearly suspect that disapproval of homosexual behavior has a higher one in Chruch life.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I don’t know where you live but in America the Christians care way more about hating gays than giving away all their money to the poor and helping the sick. If you even say acceptance of homosexuality is Christian here everyone will tell you those people and churches aren’t Christian

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You seem to base this entire thing on what you see on social media, Anon. I will compare the budget for you. Helping the poor is in millions. Disapproving of gays is 5 bucks.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Disapproving of gays is 5 bucks.
            there’s entire camps whose sole focus is “de-homosexualizing” teenagers, it’s its own entire business

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Find me a single Catholic one

            lol

            [...]
            No I mean in real life too. Also unsure why you’re only talking about how the Catholic Church spends its money. There would be no hating gays funds.
            They won’t even do gay weddings anon.
            They literally by doctrine refuse to acknowledge a gay lifetime soulmate

            >Also unsure why you’re only talking about how the Catholic Church spends its money.
            Because it's a clear metric of priority.
            >They won’t even do gay weddings anon.
            Good.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courage_International
            moron

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Not strictly Catholic, but I'll allow it. Now helping the poor is only about 300,000x more prioritized.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >trying to get gays to be celibate
            that's not "de-homosexualizing". nobody on this board reads the links they post lmao

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            OP is borderline woke about this topic, there can be no reasoning with him when it comes to this. He thinks gays have fewer rights ......

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I didn’t post that link. Though yeah trying to make gays specifically to be celibate would constitute trying to marginalize them as well.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >He thinks gays have fewer rights ......
            Didn’t say that either, I said Christians want to marginalize gays and one of the ways they do it is denying them marriage.
            They have full civil rights unless there’s some obscure thing I don’t know about

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Anon every cent towards a church that refuses to do gay weddings is a cent towards hating and marginalizing gays

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Nope

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          If I converted back to Christianity and actually took it seriously my life would get significantly worse. Jesus openly couches several of his teachings in the idea that it will be hard but the pay off is heaven
          The religion actually doesn’t make sense if it’s not true.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >has Christianity not benefitted us?
            I don’t think it’s benefits outweigh the costs, most of you clearly cherry-pick which parts of the Bible you care about and put inordinate amounts of importance on parts like disapproving of gays compared to helping the poor and sick for example.
            I am fundamentally opposed to choosing comforting delusions over hard truth as well. Anytime I’ve ever made great strides forward and seen that in others it is almost always somewhat related to acting on truth you were ignoring or missing before

            The teaching has NEVER been the payoff is Heaven, The teaching was always doing for the sake of doing good because its aligned with the Heart of God.
            >the cost
            >gays
            You realize suppressing poisonous behaviors like homosexuality is a benefit right?
            I mean you dont really believe this taboo which evokes natural revulsion in ALL populations is somehow a good thing right?
            >comforting delusions over hard truths
            ????
            rather ironic considering you would fly into a spastic fit when pointing out interracial marriages suck, gays abuse children and each other more than any other group, and the modern secular West is a shithole where everyone is unhappy and literally 90% of the population is in some way killing themselves whether it be fat mutts eating themselves to death or weird fetishists accruing novel diseases or just people outright overdosing.

            You have no idea what a Christianity society is like. You associate Christianity with your personal experience of it in the late 90s/2010s.

            you are a mental midget

  3. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    I would continue to ignore it as I have currently chosen to, as human psychology at this point requires religion for healthy development and sustainable society demands rejection of outside norms.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      Okay so you’re not choosing Christianity because you think it’s true, you’re following it because you feel like you need it.
      I hope you don’t push it on people and antagonize those who don’t have this problem

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        Virtually everyone has this problem. 90% of political discourse today is built on beliefs that are either wrong or contradictory, but people stick to them because for a healthy development they have to have some.
        nta

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          Anon people get along fine without religions. It’s very common to just be a guy living his life and enjoying it with his family and loved ones without religion

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Anon people get along fine without religions.
            Which is why no society evolved without religion and we've had 2 world wars since we started secularizing. Sounds good.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >people get along fine without religions.
            This is true, when "irreligious" means agnostic and not dogmatically invested in any type of metaphysics. Atheists are not any less religious than christgays.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >This is true, when "irreligious" means agnostic and not dogmatically invested in any type of metaphysics.
            Yeah that’s most secular people including me.
            I’m also not against religious level reverence and adherence to principles and ideas, they just have to be true or at least not false.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      > as human psychology at this point requires religion for healthy development
      only if you’re dumb and cowardly. Religion will only become less significant with time. It’s already happening.

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        Old religions will be replaced with new ones. That's what's already happening.

        Okay so you’re not choosing Christianity because you think it’s true, you’re following it because you feel like you need it.
        I hope you don’t push it on people and antagonize those who don’t have this problem

        In short, but I shall strive to live in accordance with the beliefs, choose to believe them, and do what I can to protect and promote them in order to safeguard my culture and people from outside antagonists. I'll let you decide where you think that falls, I already know where I say it does.

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          Looks like you’re saying you intentionally choose Christianity even if you know it’s not true, and you view deviation from Christianity as something you try and prevent from happening.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Why would I choose evil willingly? You'll try and call me out on the use of that word, but it is the stance a culture must take against others in order to preserve itself.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Christianity is a multi-cultural religion anon. You’re not making sense.
            Culture is norms, language, clothing, holidays, house architecture, values, songs, dance, musical scales, and art

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >norms
            Right up front you agree with me while trying to say you don't. Seems you're the one not making sense here.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I mean like manners and social rituals. Christianity is more than just that, Christianity exists in many cultures so it’s not like preserving Christianity means your culture stays the same.
            And it’s not like cultures don’t change, every culture changes.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            And what you mean doesn't matter because it doesn't correlate to what I care about. It's not of my culture, ergo it isn't of import to me.
            You seem to keep reading it backwards, implying Christianity will preserve my culture, while it is instead the preservation and protectionism of my cultural norms and values that Christianity will be preserved through. Sheltering the faith within ourselves, not taking shelter within it.
            And as to change of culture, I think you can look around and see the problem there. Just because you choose to shrug at it doesn't mean it's an acceptable thing.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            And I think you have it backwards.
            People in the west weren’t Christian because it was part of our culture primarily, they followed it because they thought it was true.
            Part of my and probably your culture is striving for greatness and truth, which would involve leaving Christianity if we found out it wasn’t actually true.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      funny how europe stop being a shithole once it abandoned the moron church and had its scientific revolution
      even funnier arabs who pray 10x more than you do in a day live in a moronic backwards permanent ape out state
      imagine not teaching women to read because muh holy book
      imagine being raised by an illiterate woman
      imagine entire generations of morons raised by morons
      thats religion for you
      >inb4 muh muhhing
      same book, same god, different local rituals

  4. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    I think that Christians here already know this is true and are just LARPing

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      I think atheists actually believe in God and are all larping

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        Anon several posters here admit that they don’t actually care if Christianity is true.

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          Precisely 0 did that. One poster (who does think it's true) admit he would follow it even if it wasn't. Stop larping as an atheist, embrace God.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >One poster (who does think it's true) admit he would follow it even if it wasn't
            Which means he doesn’t care if it’s true.
            He would follow it even if it was false.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      As moronic take as

      I think atheists actually believe in God and are all larping

      .
      t. grew up catholic

  5. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    Same designer, same design. Remember to sage and report thinly veiled demoralisation threads.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      It wouldn’t be demoralizing if you actually had ideas that held up to scrutiny.

  6. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    id probably act the same, just pressured by my own sense of morality alone to be good to my fellas rather than a higher power

  7. 9 months ago
    Dave

    they need the illusion of heaven and importance to feel better, some religious people are like those crazy UFO cult people

  8. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    This question is not valid, so I won't answer it. Thus I will simply use this post to condemn any Christians who have answered it ITT, since the question itself is completely incompatible with the Christian worldview. The existence of God is presumed as the default, so there is nothing you can do that will sway a Christian from Him.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      words: the post

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        A tard mindbroken by three simple sentences.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      >The existence of God is presumed as the default,
      Wouldn’t need to do this if it was real. Do you need to presume your shoes are real by default or can you work your way to that being true without assuming they’re real?

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        >epistemology is ontology
        Bro?

  9. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    This is a paradox. Nature doesn't contain enough information to bring us to this conclusion (and not about creation, either), so some kind of revelation from a source external to nature is necessary.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      rare rational poster

  10. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    >objective morality isn’t real
    Strictly impossible.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      lol

      You seem to base this entire thing on what you see on social media, Anon. I will compare the budget for you. Helping the poor is in millions. Disapproving of gays is 5 bucks.

      No I mean in real life too. Also unsure why you’re only talking about how the Catholic Church spends its money. There would be no hating gays funds.
      They won’t even do gay weddings anon.
      They literally by doctrine refuse to acknowledge a gay lifetime soulmate

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        >lol
        This is like saying objective suffering doesn't exist, moron. Anyone who says morality is subjective admits they deserve to be killed.

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          You’re not the first person to misunderstand objective vs. subjective anon.
          Subjective doesn’t mean “I take it less seriously” it means it’s independent of human minds and opinions, measurements, simple facts like “the sun exists” and things of that nature. Christians dont even share a total morality between eachother, between cultures, sub-cultures and sects.
          It’s subjective.
          The morally correct clothing to wear to an event is not objective, along with a million other questions

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Objective is measurements and facts*

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Not him but nothing he wrote implied he was confused about the words. He actually pointed out a pretty good problem for you. Subjective suffering.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Humans experience suffering, objective fact.
            Some total moral code exists that is objective
            Wrong
            Hope this clears things up

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You once again repeated what nobody was confused about.

            Suffering is subjective.
            Hope this clears things up.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            The levels to it? Sure. People have outright different pain tolerances.

            Correct. I also deny the legitimacy of gay marriages. Maybe all my salaries were actually anti-gay budget of my employer lmao.
            You should have said you're gay at the beginning. I would be a little more sensitive about my phrasing, I see it got to you that we didn't just take your word for "actually homophobia is higher priority for them I swear".

            If your employer was in charge of marriage certification and you worked for them or invested in them it would be a comparable situation.
            I’m not gay anon, extremely normal to see it as a problem to hate or marginalize gay people.
            I’ve thought this ever since I met a gay kid in school and realized it would be mean to hurt or attack or deny him for being different.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >The levels to it?
            No. The thing itself. It is subjective.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Eh it’s a tough one, maybe it could be argued. I’m not tied to either position, would need more time to think it through. So?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            So you should address it when

            >lol
            This is like saying objective suffering doesn't exist, moron. Anyone who says morality is subjective admits they deserve to be killed.

            mentions it instead of teaching him the meaning of words he is using correctly.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            If he thinks me acknowledging that morality is subjective means I think it’s right for him to murder he doesn’t understand what subjective means.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            What an interesting and completely random if-statement... you're OP, right?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            That’s right.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >it would be mean to hurt or attack or deny him for being different
            It absolutely would! Luckily having definitions doesn't constitute an attack. You can feel attracted to anime bodypillows for all I care, it's just not what marriage would be.
            Anon, it's 'extremely normal" to not be redefining every practice just to have more people take part.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            And here we are again with you seething about gays like Christians do every day here compared to the near zero time you people spend urging we help the poor and sick at great personal expense

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >near zero time you people spend urging we help the poor
            Yes, I tend to actually help instead of arguing about it. If to you anonymous imageboard activity displays higher priority than real life action.... you might just be a moron.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Who do you think you’re fooling?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I'll let you know once I start fooling someone lmao. Glad to see the best this thread has to offer is "I bet they be hating gays more than feeding the poor"

            We gotta unite, guys, anime pillow lovers are still not allowed to marry their pillows. They deserve the same rights.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Of course you compare marriage between gay people to inanimate objects.
            You of all people should understand the wrongness of marginalizing people because they don’t fit the norm

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Nice job avoiding the point "having standards isn't exclusion". I almost didn't notice.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            It’s bullshit semantics and re-framing. You don’t acknowledge gay marriages because you don’t believe those couples deserve the same rights.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            They have the same rights including right to marriage.
            Marriage meaning opposite sex union. Again, nobody is going to redefine things just to cater to people's likes.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >hey have the same rights including right to marriage
            The church doesn’t agree which is the problem. They were forced kicking and screaming to live in a society where two gay people can get married.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >>hey have the same rights including right to marriage
            >The church doesn’t agree which is the problem.
            They do. Read the rest of my post. As soon as any gay guy finds a woman he for some reason wants to marry, he can.
            >b-but he would like to marry a guy.... surely we should change the meaning of the word marriage just to appease him?
            Why?

            Of course you compare marriage between gay people to inanimate objects.
            You of all people should understand the wrongness of marginalizing people because they don’t fit the norm

            Refusing to re-define marriage isn't marginalization.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >They do. Read the rest of my post. As soon as any gay guy finds a woman he for some reason wants to marry, he can.
            lol what a frickin scumbag

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Boohoo they won't redefine words for me

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Part of ending marginalization is redefining things to include the marginalized. Part of marginalization is defining the marginalized and their rights differently.
            Gay marriage is legal and you have to deal with it, the march continues to a point where one day churches will have to perform gay marriages.

            Tick tock.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Absolutely. Pillows won't marry themselves, guys! Next up: theists who don't believe in God. Wouldn't wanna marginalize anyone from calling themselves a theist, right, just change the words to mean nothing lmao

            Please don't add omnious tick tocks to your posts, I feel threatened. Woah.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            The seething and anxiety about churches marrying gays in the future is palpable in your post. It will be a good day on Oyish, and of course America

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I would be anxious if I were American or heterodox lol.

            Thanks for omitting the 'tick tock'. It sent shiver down my spine. Couldn't quite get it out of my head, it was frightening me a little...

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Oh good I’m glad you’re not a citizen of my country. That tick tock was a throwaway but I’m glad it got in your head.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I am glad too lol
            Can we please redefine tick tock? I feel marginalized.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >He’s still bringing it up

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I feel even more marginalized now. What are you going to do about the definition, fellow theist?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >lol

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            It means laugh out loud.

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        >They literally by doctrine refuse to acknowledge a gay lifetime soulmate
        Wedding is not an "acknowledgement". You have the state for that.

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          Suck my dick, they deny the legitimacy of gay marriages.
          Every cent that goes towards a Catholic Church supports that

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Correct. I also deny the legitimacy of gay marriages. Maybe all my salaries were actually anti-gay budget of my employer lmao.
            You should have said you're gay at the beginning. I would be a little more sensitive about my phrasing, I see it got to you that we didn't just take your word for "actually homophobia is higher priority for them I swear".

  11. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    I'm not a christian but I believe in universal truth, there is an afterlife, objective morality is true, evolution is a fictious theory and a blasphemy against nature and creation. I will add that morality also depends on culture so if you are a christian divorce is immoral but if you're a Hindu which permits divorce if the husband is infertile then divorce is not immoral. It's dependent on your own culture which you belong to and which was created by wiser people before you.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      >objective morality is true, evolution is a fictious theory and a blasphemy against nature and creation. I will add that morality also depends on culture
      A hare brained biology take sandwiched between a direct contradiction. Beautiful

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      >desert nomads from 1000 years ago know what’s best for modern people
      most moronic post ive seen on this board in a while

  12. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    Judging by the fact that several guys explained they would still be Christian even if they figured out Christianity was false, safe to say a lot of them are LARPing in the first place.

  13. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    It would be gravely upsetting, and traumatic even. I would still follow (most) of the bibles teachings but it would be more of a book of wisdom for me

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      Can’t relate, I was pretty excited when I found out I didn’t have to worry about hell. Thanks for the honest and straightforward answer though.

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        I suppose "Not existing" would be better than risking hellfire.

        Have you read Dantes's Inferno? There are different levels of hell in it, with the outer levels not being filled with screams, but with Sighs.

        So I imagine honorable Pagans (like Hadrian) and Atheists would suffer in the conventional sense like Murders and rapists. But life without God is already hell

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          Wouldn't*

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        How did you "find out"?

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          Learned how things in the universe actually work and where things came from. Learned about other ancient myths and realized the story about Yahweh and his sonself is also a myth. Countless other facts about reality vs. what the Bible says.

          I suppose "Not existing" would be better than risking hellfire.

          Have you read Dantes's Inferno? There are different levels of hell in it, with the outer levels not being filled with screams, but with Sighs.

          So I imagine honorable Pagans (like Hadrian) and Atheists would suffer in the conventional sense like Murders and rapists. But life without God is already hell

          I don’t know I enjoy life. Hope you figure it out man. It would be a shame if you died and church and the Bible were the only things you enjoyed

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Learned how things work
            >Found out myths exist
            I see. And so how did you find out that you don't have to worry about hell?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Because Christianity is a religion based on a fictional myth.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Okay, let's skip the fact that many religions report a hell-esque afterworld, how did you determine that hell in particular is what Christianity is wrong about.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            They’re all myths and the afterlives are part of the myths anon. It’s not real, old superstitions. Don’t stress about it.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            How do I stop stressing? I read basic physics and learned a great deal of mythology. Somehow the assumption that I can just dismiss whatever I don't like didn't arise in my head like it did in yours... was there some extra step you took?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You would have to realize basically what I said in the op and here

            What created the universe?
            Did anything create the universe?
            Why does the universe exist?
            Does “why” even apply to this question?

            These are all mysteries. That’s the replacement for the belief Yahweh and J-bone created the universe.

            Where did the sun come from?
            It’s hydrogen it coalesced in a cloud of hydrogen which are everywhere in space. It’s a natural fusion reactor fusing under its own weight

            Where did the earth come from? Cloud of elements just like the sun but on the periphery.

            Where did the first life come from?
            Mystery with a few plausible natural options
            Where did animals and plants come from?
            They evolved for 4 billion years.
            Where did humans come from?
            Same, that’s a paradigm shift for you.

            Why do we feel social emotions?
            Because they are social traits to make us social animals which was beneficial to primate survival and reproduction.

            And understand it. I’m not saying it’s impressive, but not everyone can do it. You’ll figure it out if you’re smart enough.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I understand all of that and am fine with most of it. Still, can't find the magical power to just straight up assume something isn't real...

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You don’t believe in plenty of mythical afterlife realms anon, this is just one more.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Sadly a Ricky Gervais meme doesn't summon the magical power either. Will I ever learn how to just randomly assume stuff is not real or is it only for the gifted?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Not magic anon, you don’t believe in the Celtic otherworld either. Not magic, just being a rational modern man with at least a modicum of intelligence.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            My bad, it's not magic indeed. But I wouldn't quite invoke intelligence either. There are many things you believe that you didn't see for yourself. Hell is just one more.
            Does that sound.... intelligent?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I don’t actually need to see things for myself to believe they exist I just need proof.

            >It sure sounds like you've got yourself a mental problem there, buddy! No sane person would think such things! I have *NEVER* had such thoughts; and if I ever had, I would most certainly immediately reject them with such vigour because to think such things would not be conducive to living a life the way we are all expected!
            I'm sure you might have good motive, but still all I can see in your reply is the archons that stood guard around the garden of the great cosmic joke. I live a normal life, aside from my shitty ghetto studio apartment getting dirtier and dirtier because of the power of compounding laziness. The only thing you would think off about me if you were to talk to me in real life is that I'm no good at small talk, prefer to listen and can only really bust out many sentences in conversation if a topic I have interest/experience in comes up. Yet, because I post the random showerthoughts of a life well-lived, the thoughts any who dares to truly explore existence and meaning, I must need psychiatry.
            What a funny system, don't you think? One that naturally disposes all to vehemently refuse such thoughts (even I spend very very little time thinking of these things because the discomfort is so strong) and to suppress them in others, one which puts so many responsibilities and tasks and relationships and other fetters in the way of each person so that they might never have the time to think on these things.

            Looks like you put a lot of effort into this and at a quick glance it’s well thought out. I have a party to go to now, and will give you a good response tomorrow morning if the thread is still up. Have a good night man.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I just need proof
            I see, and what proof did you look for when it came to hell?

            None, Anon. You looked for none. You just decided it's more convenient to not believe it. And that's fine with me, I just want you to be clear that you didn't "find out" anything. Quite the opposite. You found out nothing and decided a belief yourself.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Christianity being a myth means hell isn’t real, you didn’t need this explained to you again, you’re just backed into a corner.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >me deciding stuff isn't real is a checkmate
            I guess it is, because many religions tha had hells thought Christianity is a myth too. And yet here you are with the same remise and an opposite conclusion. I am backed into a corner.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Completely understandable that ancient superstitious people thought people who broke the rules in society went to a bad afterlife.

            Also 4vminutes to reply to a conversation we left off 18 hours ago? You are an insane person. Have you had this thread on refresh for 18 hours?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Have you had this thread on refresh for 18 hours?
            Yes.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You absolutely have some sort of OCD adjacent disorder. That level of obsession along with everything we discussed yesterday is a lot of box checks. Holy fricking shit dude get checked out, you don’t need to be like this.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Perhaps. I just wanted to get that sub 1min reply in once I saw you're freaked out. Gotta scare people somehow when they don't believe in hell.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            You misunderstand. I’m not scared anon, I’m surprised by your level of obsessive compulsive mental disorder. Everything you say along with that points to a serious mental disorder.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Would you say those people "found out" hell existed the same way you "found out" it didn't ? By merely deciding to believe it?

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I can’t decide to believe anything by choice, and I think you’re lying to yourself if you think things you know to be true hold the same weight as things you just decide to pretend to believe.
            I follow the facts and the truth wherever they take me. A life based on lies is no life at all.
            Living a life of honesty forces you to be better and improve yourself so you don’t need those lies to cope.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >pretend to believe
            Wouldn't know. Nobody is pretending. Although I hear this meme from atheists pretty often. Is it like a coping mechanism? "I can't seem to believe so others probably can't either?"
            >I follow the facts and the truth wherever they take me
            Well yeah, I would like to do that too. But I can't follow you in your leaps of faith that you mask as finding out a fact. Perhaps you didn't consciously choose to believe something, I'm fine with that. But you didn't conclude it from facts either. You just read a book the way you wanted, made primitive comparisons and drew the easiest and most convenient conclusion. I'm afraid I can't do that. Truth matters too much.

            Anyway, I gotta go again. I wasn't here for 18 hours lol we just seem to live in a similar timezone. God bless

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I told you I’m not an atheist and you have decided to believe in Christianity with leaps of faith far bigger than the ones I make. I’m just more skeptical than you and care more about truth and facts.
            Not interested in living a lie.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Gaslighting
            Condescending tone aside, the more Godless a society becomes the more degeneracy becomes rampant, this world is disgusting, perverse, and evil, that's why I call it "Hell" because it's the closest thing to hell we have right now, without direct connection to the Father.

            John 15:19:
            "If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I don’t consider life on earth hell anon, not gaslighting. I like being alive and so do many many people

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            I never said I didn't enjoy life, I just understand that this is not my world. When you see troony abominations and kids having their wiener cut off and fed hormones, does that not feel a little satanic?

            It’s likely a mental health problem anon. Not trying to hurt you but if you’re going to be able to fix this anxiety you have you would have to fix your mental health.
            Exercise and socializing more, achieving a variety of goals big and small is a good start. A girlfriend wouldn’t hurt

            Not me but
            >More gaslighting
            I don't understand why you think Thiests (Or this dude) has a problem because he does share your beliefs.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            Him saying he would kill himself if Christianity weren’t true is indicative of a mental health problem.
            You really inflate the trans stuff by the way. I hear about trans people more here than anywhere in reality. Way, way, way more.

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        Maybe we can just re-define hell to mean good stuff too. More inclusivity.

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          I got in your head pretty deep babe :^)

  14. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    > babe :^)

  15. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    Would OD or blow my brains out or if I'm feeling pussy then just drop everything and start walking in a random direction until I die.
    No matter the logic of "living the one life you have" I would be unable to cope with an existence which aribtrarily began and will arbitrarily terminate such that nothing exists forever even though for some brief time something did exist??? So drugs would be the answer, and as usual when I indulge in them, I would have a complete psychotic breakdown upon realizing life is a joke.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      I hope you figure it out one day man. Sorry to hear that.

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        That's the part that seems the worst to me, that one cannot ever figure it out. To figure out why/how we are here is an impossibility, something which leads one to explode into ... some strange joke fractal before regaining consciousness with understanding wiped.

        It's like the only way to live is to accept the matrix, to go with a delusion which provides comfort, to believe in something which everyday feels more and more untrue, to pretend with everyone else around you that this is all not entirely psychotic and that you are a normal functioning meat-robot who accepts their lot. The ideals of Christianity are nice, some purpose is given, but even then one must either be a hermit or otherwise put on some mask and suppress the entirety of existence weighing upon the fact that none of this makes any damn sense.

        • 9 months ago
          Anonymous

          It’s likely a mental health problem anon. Not trying to hurt you but if you’re going to be able to fix this anxiety you have you would have to fix your mental health.
          Exercise and socializing more, achieving a variety of goals big and small is a good start. A girlfriend wouldn’t hurt

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >It sure sounds like you've got yourself a mental problem there, buddy! No sane person would think such things! I have *NEVER* had such thoughts; and if I ever had, I would most certainly immediately reject them with such vigour because to think such things would not be conducive to living a life the way we are all expected!
            I'm sure you might have good motive, but still all I can see in your reply is the archons that stood guard around the garden of the great cosmic joke. I live a normal life, aside from my shitty ghetto studio apartment getting dirtier and dirtier because of the power of compounding laziness. The only thing you would think off about me if you were to talk to me in real life is that I'm no good at small talk, prefer to listen and can only really bust out many sentences in conversation if a topic I have interest/experience in comes up. Yet, because I post the random showerthoughts of a life well-lived, the thoughts any who dares to truly explore existence and meaning, I must need psychiatry.
            What a funny system, don't you think? One that naturally disposes all to vehemently refuse such thoughts (even I spend very very little time thinking of these things because the discomfort is so strong) and to suppress them in others, one which puts so many responsibilities and tasks and relationships and other fetters in the way of each person so that they might never have the time to think on these things.

          • 9 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Yet, because I post the random showerthoughts of a life well-lived, the thoughts any who dares to truly explore existence and meaning, I must need psychiatry.
            Not what I said at all. I suggested lifestyle changes and you wouldn’t need to see a psychiatrist even if it required professional mental health intervention.
            The reason why I said this is because you described immense pain and anxiety that would put your life at risk if you found out Christianity was true. You should be able to function and not have a nice day or lose your mind even if you figured out Christianity was false

  16. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    it wouldn't change at all, faith is faith, i would continue to put my faith in christ no differently than i do now. showing me evidence to the contrary of faith is literally irrelevant. if it was relevant, it wouldn't be faith

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      Hey at least you’re honest, thanks.

  17. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    Nothing they would do nothing, nothing would change. Everyone here already liges as if God didn't exist. They go to work, browse Oyish, etc like everyone else.

  18. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    idk, the same way my life would change if any other fictitious idea/thing were real

  19. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    >if you found out Christianity wasn’t true,
    Then what is true? Good luck proving that one.
    >objective morality isn’t real,
    It's fairly self-evident that it is real. If it's not, then there is no reason to debate about morals.
    >you will die when your heart stops,
    Who disagrees with that?
    >and we are a species of great ape that evolved from the same line as chimpanzees and bonobos a few hundred thousand years ago
    You can believe in Christianity and evolution, they aren't necessarily contradictory.

  20. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    why are r/atheism goblins so quick to use evolution as a 'gotcha' card when it's not something necessarily mutually exclusive from the Christianity?

    also lmao unproved scientific theory in a sea of unproven scientific theories, not as stupid as the people who balk over black holes and pretend to be knowledgeable astronomers though, but not far either

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      Didn’t answer the question.

      >if you found out Christianity wasn’t true,
      Then what is true? Good luck proving that one.
      >objective morality isn’t real,
      It's fairly self-evident that it is real. If it's not, then there is no reason to debate about morals.
      >you will die when your heart stops,
      Who disagrees with that?
      >and we are a species of great ape that evolved from the same line as chimpanzees and bonobos a few hundred thousand years ago
      You can believe in Christianity and evolution, they aren't necessarily contradictory.

      Then what is true? That Christianity isn’t true, the universe exists without the Bible being true. Why can’t you answer the question?

      • 9 months ago
        Anonymous

        >Then what is true? That Christianity isn’t true, the universe exists without the Bible being true. Why can’t you answer the question?
        I did answer the question... If Christianity is not true, we would still need to somehow explain things which necessitate the existence of a God, such as the existence of the universe and moral law. The next logical step once Christianity was "disproven" (ignoring that it is impossible to prove a negative), would be examining other Gods, or else inventing a God who matches the necessary description. Atheism wouldn't even be a possible explanation. Since God is the foundation of epistemological truth, "disproving" God would also "disprove" truth. In which case one would need to ask the question "If God is false, what is true, or what truth remains?"

  21. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    Was Protestant Christian for 35 years then over the course of several years (it took several years, this kind of beliefs don’t just flip like a lightswitch) this is what happened in my case.

    What changed? Well I fell into a severe depression for several years since everything I believed was basically a lie, my entire moral frame was based on a lie, I wasn’t going to heaven anymore, etc.

    To be honest I never really recovered. Most people believe about God(s) whatever they’re raised to and whatever the people around them believe. And honestly regardless of whether or not it’s (I don’t personally think Christianity is true anymore but still) I was much happier believing the lie.

    So you’re left with the question of whether delusion is OK or even a good thing if people find happiness and meaning in it. Some days I feel differently about that question.

    I still have a “moral code” but I see it much more like this:

    Suppose you have a neighbor and you both live in fear of the other guy coming over to rob you, kill you, rape your wife etc. what’s the solution? Well it’s meeting with your neighbors and coming up with a set of mutually beneficial standards and rules with punishments so that people actually stick to it — so that you all can live better lives. That’s basically where human ethics come from seems me. It’s a bit trickier than that since people have very different amounts of power and power often warps who the law benefits and such but yeah.

    Anyway I’m now a depressed middle aged man with no hope but a lot of that isn’t the loss of religion it’s how my life has gone.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      Thanks for the high effort reply. Anyway, you wouldn’t have had this problem if you weren’t lied to in the first place, and
      This
      >Anyway I’m now a depressed middle aged man with no hope but a lot of that isn’t the loss of religion it’s how my life has gone.

      Is also one of my main points. It’s a life problem that many of you are covering up and hiding with Christianity. Without the crutch maybe you would have learned to walk on your own. Maybe a lot of the guys here have real world problems in their life and mental health issues and are using Christianity as an often maladaptive coping mechanism.

      If it were just a private personal thing I wouldn’t really care, but once you push it on others who don’t need or want it or attack others for not doing the same, who can live life with truth in their hearts, then you get push back.

  22. 9 months ago
    Anonymous

    to start, being Christian doesn't mean you have to deny evolution. Eden being a strictly literal physical place on Earth guarded by Angels doesn't really make sense, so I mean where did it go? the bible doesn't say that the tree of life was sucked back into heaven.

    but to answer your question, my life wouldn't change very much. even if I had infallible knowledge that the universe is strictly material, a frankly fringe and unscientific claim, I would still go to Church. Whether I am Ape or an Ape with a touch of divinity, I still have the spiritual need to humble myself and express gratitude. Partaking in the liturgy of my ancestors has given me far more peace and consolidation than all of the manufactured pleasures of the post-modern world. So no, my life wouldn't change.

    I was raised without God and my life was hollow disordered. Since I have converted I now have a template of being that I aspire to. Just judged by its merits the materialist-hedonist template is awful, and its fruits have been awful for the individual and awful for society.

    Nietzsche was right to fear that his Overman would never appear.

    • 9 months ago
      Anonymous

      I don’t know where you’re from but in America secular people are wealthier, more educated, more intelligent, make more money, and are in better physical shape than Christians.

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