Catholics and Orthodox will claim that praying to the saints is the ancient teaching of the Church, but we can easily see from several Church Fathers ...

Catholics and Orthodox will claim that praying to the saints is the ancient teaching of the Church, but we can easily see from several Church Fathers that directing prayers to any created being was condemned.

>We judge it improper to pray to those beings who themselves offer up prayers (to God), seeing even they themselves would prefer that we should send up our requests to the God to whom they pray, rather than send them downwards to themselves, or apportion our power of prayer between God and them.
Origen, Against Celsus 5.11

>It is manifest that those who either make prayers to the dead, or venerate the earth, or make over their souls to unclean spirits, do not act as becomes men, and that they will suffer punishment for their impiety and guilt, who, rebelling against God, the Father of the human race, have undertaken inexpiable rites, and violated every sacred law.
Lactantius, Divine Institutes 2.18

>No one, for instance, would pray to receive from God and the Angels, or from any other creature, nor would any one say, 'May God and the Angel give you;' but from Father and the Son, because of their oneness and the oneness of Their giving
Athanasius, Against the Arians 13.5 §57

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  1. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    Augustine also said something to the same effect in City of God

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      If you can find it, please tell us where it is, I'll make a note of it.

  2. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    No one advocates "praying to the saints as praying to God," they advocate praying to the Saints to pray with/for you as your pray to God. It is simply misreading the tradition to say that people pray to saints like they pray to God. In the Bible, people offer veneration to angels. Paul explicitly says we are to pray for one another. In Revelations, John gives the image of chosen saints offering up bowls of the prayers of all the saints to God like incense. So clearly, the saints can hear, and handle our prayers. I Peter also talks about the Gospel being proclaimed to "those who were dead."

    It's prayer with, and a plea of intercession and prayer for, not prayer directed to (as divine).

    Hail Mary, full of grace
    Blessed art thou among women
    and blessed is the fruit of they womb Jesus.
    Holy Mary, Mother of God,
    PRAY FOR* us sinners,
    now and in the hour of our death. Amen.

    *Note, not "forgive us" as in the "Our Father."

    Mary is the example of prayer not the object. We don't not say "glory onto" Mary as in "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen."

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      And note, to those who would claim that "the saints are dead, they cannot hear anything," that it is explicitly stated many times that God is the God of the living, not the dead (Mark 12). But is God then not the God of the saints? As Paul says, "by no means."

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        And the communion of the saints is into one Body, the Body and Bride of Christ, a mystery. This Body is not dead. Rather, in the Marian mission of the church we give birth to it immanently through Christ who lives in us, as even now, as Paul says, we are groaning as in labor as we give birth to the world that is to come. Thus, we profess:

        >"I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen."

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      And note, to those who would claim that "the saints are dead, they cannot hear anything," that it is explicitly stated many times that God is the God of the living, not the dead (Mark 12). But is God then not the God of the saints? As Paul says, "by no means."

      And the communion of the saints is into one Body, the Body and Bride of Christ, a mystery. This Body is not dead. Rather, in the Marian mission of the church we give birth to it immanently through Christ who lives in us, as even now, as Paul says, we are groaning as in labor as we give birth to the world that is to come. Thus, we profess:

      >"I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen."

      OP BTFO

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      You don't have to pray to the saints as to God, to go against what the Church fathers say. They couldn't be more explicit that you do not direct prayers to men or other created beings like angels. The whole "it's just asking a friend to pray for you" is a modern apologetic quip (find me the doctor of the church or Pope who first words it like that). The Catholic view is explicitly that the saints are in heaven and their prayers are MORE effective than our own, so we should pray to them for our prayers to be more effective. I don't know how you could miss the potential for that to detract from prayer to God directly.

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        Yes, the Bible explicitly talks about gradations of righteousness and some being more beloved. Particularly beloved is the Queen of Heaven, prophecied in Daniel, the Blessed Virgin, the Theotokos. Mary is the most perfect example in humanity of responsiveness to God's call, loyalty, and prayer.

        The problem Reformed have with this is that they hold Biblically unsupportable positions like:

        >Absolute depravity such that all the righteous of the OT are only righteous through God acting through them like puppets
        >Irresistible grace, even though Saint Stephen very specifically tells the israelites that they "resist the Holy Spirit."
        >That God does not want to save all and in fact hates most. This against John, "God is love."
        >This requires adding " to the elect," to almost anything Jesus said and reading out all the choice verbage throughout the Bible.
        >Reject deification and claim God still finds even the saved displeasing.
        >Claim God does not save based on anything at all except arbitrariness

        So for them, the Saints are still disgusting before God, only covered from punishment, and were never made righteous, and so they can't be people to pray with. And their God damns most and damns based on things they are helpless to prevent. It is a painting of God as Satan really.

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          >This against John, "God is love."

          Election is repeatedly explicitly affirmed throughout the Gospels. How would it be against said statement? "Love" as synonymous with totality and universality is an orientalism (i.e. Catholicism).

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          The position of the predestination of those to Hell is also not biblically supported. If it were true, then God would be criticizing His own decision to predestine that person to Hell when He said "It would have been better if he was never born."

      • 6 months ago
        Anonymous

        >The doctrine isn't what the groups who have it say it is but this strawman that I want it to be.

        Thanks, but I will listen to the Catechism, the Pope, and the bishops on what it means. Or the patriarchs and bishops for Orthobros.

        • 6 months ago
          Anonymous

          curious newcomer, what's the proper defense of it?
          Only ever heard appeals to emotion (Marian apologetics with "wouldn't you obey your mom"), and equivalences like icons being like pictures of loved ones, although you do not kiss them nor light candles for people.
          Nor pray in front of them for that matter.

          • 6 months ago
            Anonymous

            >Nor pray in front of them for that matter.
            Catholics and Orthodox don't just pray in front of images, their theology specifically directs them to pray *to* thr images which act as windows to heaven. Some modern Catholic apologists play this down but they're going against the historical expression of their faith.

            Catholics and Orthodox believe the second council of Nicaea is infallible and can't be wrong. That council says that the icons and relics themselves are holy and that Christians can participate in the holiness of the images by venerating them and saluting them (see pic). It pronounces anathema (expelling from from church) on anyone who doesn't venerate icons, on anyone who venerates but doesn't truly believe in the icons' holiness, on anyone who even associates with someone who doesn't venerate the icons, and so on. It says the apostles and church fathers taught icon veneration, which can easily see is not true.

            I recentlt visited the church of Patriarch of Constantinople, all the pilgrims I saw went straight to the images and relics of saints to kiss them and pray to them. The single icon of Jesus was mostly ignored.

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      >"Veneration" of the Saints and Mary and "petitioning" them totally doesn't count as worship bro. Just trust me on this
      >Ignore Jesus' direct instructions to pray to God the Father

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      As () said. Listen to the litany of the saints.

      Every time they address the Holy Trinity, they say “miserere nobis” (have mercy on us). But when they address the saints they say “ora pro nobis” (pray for us).

      ?si=btD3T__8t-4RlftL

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      Matthew 6:9-15 NIV
      >[9] “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, [10] your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. [11] Give us today our daily bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. ’ [14] For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. [15] But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

  3. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    Another issue with this is that many saints immortalized are co-opted from Paganism, which is no different from African syncretic religions such as santeria. For example St. Brigid (Celtic roots), St. George (Persian roots) etc. If I pray to these saints am I not invoking paganism? Now there's the personhood of the saint and then there's the story/mythology that goes along with the saint, the latter is the one filled with paganism. How do the churches justify it?

  4. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to Oyish.

  5. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    To Catholics and Orthodox I believe as well the saints are not dead they are alive in heaven praying for our salvation. You don’t want pray to the saints you ask them to pray for you. It is the same as asking people to pray for you when you are sick. There is a belief that the more people praying the more powerful the prayer will be.

  6. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    This type of dialogue of "x church father said y" just goes around in circles forever. The reality is ancient Christianity was extremely diverse post-expansion out of Judea and the range of acceptable beliefs have narrowed over time. This is painfully obvious to any non-dogmatist.
    There never was a pristine, monolithic, "agreed on every secondary issue" Christianity outside of the early days in Judea. Even Acts and the Epistles hint at arguments between the apostles.
    Praying to saints, or not praying to saints, both are legitimate perspectives today. The former is shared by Catholics and Orthodox and the latter is now characteristically Protestant.

  7. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    >praying to the saints
    No such thing

    • 6 months ago
      Anonymous

      Even Catholic apologists call it "praying to the saints"

      https://www.catholic.com/tract/praying-to-the-saints

  8. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    How do I know you aren't ignoring the positive quotations you could take from the Church Fathers about prayer to Saints??

  9. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    No one thinks you "to saints"; you pray to God with saints.

  10. 6 months ago
    Anonymous

    Cathlocultists eternally BTFO

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