Can any Catholics here explain how this is not a contradiction. The Athanasian Creed:

Can any Catholics here explain how this is not a contradiction

The Athanasian Creed:
>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly
>This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
>This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church [...] but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.

The Athanasian Creed says it's impossible to be saved if you don't believe in the Catholic faith while the CCC says it's possible for those who don't believe in the Catholic faith to still be saved. If it is a contradiction is it not an issue that an accepted creed is in contradiction with a summary of church doctrine promulgated by a Pope?

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  1. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    I'm Protestant and affirm the Athanasian Creed so I'm also Catholic.

  2. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    One statement simply complements the other. Faith is necessary for justification; but if a person doesn't have faith, but not out of malice, then God won't blame this person for it. Imagine someone who never even got in contact with the Catholic faith

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >You need to be Catholic to be saved
      >You don't need to be Catholic to be saved
      How complimentary.

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        The sense in knowing Christ is just slightly different in the two quotes. You do need to be one with Christ (only the elect are really Christians) to be saved but if you never learned of every aspect of the whole, catholic truth your judgement will be lighter.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      >but if a person doesn't have faith, but not out of malice, then God won't blame this person for it.
      I understand this is what the CCC says but it seems to contradict what the Athanasian Creed says. The Creed says you cannot be saved if you don't believe in x, y, and z, and makes no mention of any caveats like if you were never exposed to the Catholic faith

      The Universal Church is the mystical body of Christ. You cannot know and practice strength, chastity, love, and temperance without also knowing (if imperfectly) and serving God. Virtuous pagans were more Christian than most who claim that title today.

      >(if imperfectly)
      The creed says you're still damned even if you believe the faith imperfectly, "Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled"

      The sense in knowing Christ is just slightly different in the two quotes. You do need to be one with Christ (only the elect are really Christians) to be saved but if you never learned of every aspect of the whole, catholic truth your judgement will be lighter.

      >your judgement will be lighter
      That's not what the Creed says though. It says you will perish everlastingly. Is there a more harsh judgement than perishing everlastingly?

  3. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    The Universal Church is the mystical body of Christ. You cannot know and practice strength, chastity, love, and temperance without also knowing (if imperfectly) and serving God. Virtuous pagans were more Christian than most who claim that title today.

  4. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    The (for the most part) christologocally sound schismatics known as protestants and orthodox didn't exist back in athanasius' day. The athanasian creed is a defense against non-trinitarians.

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      So can these non-trinitarians be saved or not? The CCC seems to say the can if they sincerely seek the truth and follow their conscience while the Creed says they're damned whether they're sincere or not. Are you going to say that every single non-trinitarian doesn't sincerely seek God and follow their own conscience?

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >So can these non-trinitarians be saved or not?
        Well that certainly depends on if the Church even considers them to be Christian or not.
        This is from Vatican II's UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO
        >But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace on our behalf, sinners that we are. In recent times more than ever before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement toward unity is called "ecumenical." Those belong to it who invoke the Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, doing this not merely as individuals but also as corporate bodies. For almost everyone regards the body in which he has heard the Gospel as his Church and indeed, God's Church. All however, though in different ways, long for the one visible Church of God, a Church truly universal and set forth into the world that the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of God.
        So basically to be a Christian you still have to be a trinitarian, yes.
        Just skimming through the document on non-Christian religions(NOSTRA AETATE), it comes across more as a "God has worked at least some good in their pagan cultures, so don't raze their temples, erase their culture, and forcibly convert them pls" type of statement.

        • 7 months ago
          Anonymous

          >Well that certainly depends on if the Church even considers them to be Christian or not
          I don't think that's what it depends on though. The part of the CCC I quoted says non-Christians (which includes non-trinitarians) can be saved, provided they don't know Christ and his Church, sincerely seek God, and follow their conscience.

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            >I don't think that's what it depends on though.
            We were comparing the creed to the CCC. My point still stands that the creed was dunking on non-trinitarians.

            >The part of the CCC I quoted says non-Christians (which includes non-trinitarians) can be saved, provided they don't know Christ and his Church, sincerely seek God, and follow their conscience.
            The telling part there is them not knowing Christ and his Church. Apostasy is rejection of the Church. Non-trinitarians who have heard the trinitarian gospel have rejected the Church. You can't be apostate unless you've heard of the Church. Uncontacted tribes aren't ALL going to hell simply because they haven't been contacted. Some may be saved. Notice the language in the documents. They always use may or can. Never will or shall. Not every single one of your pre-Christian ancestors is necessarily burning in hell for the simple crime of not even having been contacted until 1500 years into the Christian project. This is similar to Dante's "good pagans" from the Divine Comedy, only the Church says they might've actually had a chance to go to heaven instead of just being stuck in the "best" level of hell.

            I think Protestants need to stop seeing everything the Church does as being focused upon them. There are bazillions of beaners and africoons who were pagans just a few hundred years ago worrying about their ancestors de facto boiling eternally in a lake of fire for the simple defect of having been born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also please stop judging the Church's historical teachings as if they exist outside of time. Anachronism is cringe on a Oyishtory board.

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            >My point still stands that the creed was dunking on non-trinitarians.
            It's not just "dunking" on them it's saying they cannot be saved. Even if we accept that non-trinitarians are also non-Christians, the CCC says non-Christians can be saved

            >The telling part there is them not knowing Christ and his Church. Apostasy is rejection of the Church. Non-trinitarians who have heard the trinitarian gospel have rejected the Church.
            Just hearing about the trinity doesn't equal "knowing Christ and his Church". I would understand non-trinitarians who fully understand the Trinity but still reject it to be damned, but some Arian living in a little village in Visigothic Spain may have only heard biased inklings about the trinity. This Arian would fall under the category of invincibly ignorant, thus making it possible for them to be saved if they sincerely follow their conscience. Invincible ignorance is brought up all the time to show how righteous protestants can still be saved

          • 7 months ago
            Anonymous

            Notice how the creed says "will be saved" while the CCC says "may achieve eternal salvation"
            The difference between will and may is important.

  5. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    That's the Vatican II catechism OP

  6. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Simple. It's necessary that you wear a seatbelt by law in many countries, doesn't mean that you will 100% die during a car crash

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      The creed says you will 100% die. "Without a doubt" and "cannot" means 100%

      Notice how the creed says "will be saved" while the CCC says "may achieve eternal salvation"
      The difference between will and may is important.

      >The difference between will and may is important.
      That's my whole point, how do reconcile "will" with "may"? The creed says everyone who's saved will believe in the Trinity, while the CCC says everyone who's saved may or may not believe in the Trinity

  7. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Catholicism still teaches that you need to be in the Church to be saved. However this "Church" is not the official Catholic Church.
    In Vatican 2, they rewrote a draft document that originally said "the Church is the Catholic Church" to instead say "the Church SUBSISTS IN the Catholic Church". (paraphrasing)
    What does "subsist in" mean? Nobody knows. It is intentionally vague and caused an ongoing dispute. But the goal is to open room for salvation outside of the official Catholic Church.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsistit_in

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      How does this explain the contradiction? The Creed is very clear on what the requirements are for salvation, whatever that specifically means.

  8. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Some more explanation. This is from the condemnation of Feeneyism as a heresy, in 1949 (so before Vat 2):

    >The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as She is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to Her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.).

    So all you need to be saved is a "good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God".
    The kicker is that the definition of invincible ignorance has also progressively broadened, so that today it's no longer the case that if you are aware of Catholic doctrine you can no longer be invincibly ignorant.

  9. 7 months ago
    Anonymous

    Is theology really just semantics and word games?

    • 7 months ago
      Anonymous

      More or less, just like all philosophy.

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      >D4MND

      Looks like God was telling me something here

      • 7 months ago
        Anonymous

        >worships the demonic entity that is captcha

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